Daring to Tear Open Pandora`s Box

Daring to Open Pandora`s Box of Religious Rights

Chris Graham of the blog named

Lefty, Begone!

 http://leftybegone.wordpress.com/

Did a post titled : “You can`t rape your wife! oh, it`s part of your religion? My apologies. Carry on.”

See here

I do agree with Chris , something is very wrong when women are oppressed and abused this way by men . Its disgusting and wrong. But why does it still happen and why should a persons claim of a particular faith be able to be used to try to sanction it ? .

Chris gave us the link to the Fox Nation article also which reports on this particular case. And hopefully Chris wont mind me discussing this situation a little further over here on my blog because in my opinion i think the underlying problems run pretty deep , deeper than many of us humans maybe even fully realize yet , and in my opinion these problems all have some parallels with some situations of our own Ex EBs experience for instance . And how the Exclusive Brethrens rights to religious rights to claim what they do as being all part and parcel of their own particular belief system , allows them the right ! to also overrule  and degenerate other human matters of consideration . Such as the matters of the consideration of humanity ! and fairness ! and kindness ! and the rights of family not to be split and divided , and even the fact that this is now even the year 2010 ! , when one might have even hoped ! humanity maybe might have made a few more advances by now, past some of the more barbaric ancient painful ideas of times of old . But alas ,  it often seems … No we have not ! really yet made such advances. Advances where humans different all sorted faiths are no longer allowed to cause other humans such sadness , harm and abuse .

In my opinion it’s quite obvious , humanity often still has such a  very long way to go. And it is my opinion that even if yes, Sharia laws might really be “extra tough” , that’s still a little beside the point isn’t it ? ,because before we even start casting stones at certain types of cultures in particular , for not evolving fast enough and not seeing the error of their own religious ways . Maybe we too ! also need to be taking a much more inward look at all the religious beliefs of all our own cultures ! and the religious rights they all hold onto , and be asking ourselves if not maybe we too have our own problems that might in fact be in need some modern-day adjustments also , even if maybe they might be of need of adjustment ! even if to some lessor extent . That still don’t wipe our own slates as being entirely clean and totally without any blemish . Does it ?.

No i cant see how . Not if we wish to be both honest and fair.

And if these religious rights are stunting our own ability to evolve and grow and learn from past mistakes , then what right should we have right to judge any others who come to exist within our society , and happen to find the use of our laws of these rights to religious rights , as something they too can also use ? to hide behind !  as a way to also make themselves not be able to be judged by laws of humanity ?.

Why should these people from other countries be to blame or thought responsible for that existing situation ? . Isnt it our fault we dug-our-heels-in so long , and so never changed it ?

In my opinion this is a problem that obviously already does exist , long before any other cultures decide to be moving here to our countries to join us . If this wasnt the case , then pray tell ? , how do faithful folks suppose this problem just happens to suddenly arise ? . Did that naughty Stalk bird , that evil nasty bird that delivers bad evil babies to certain people s doorways , suddenly decide to arrive to deliver this baby ? , or was this baby actually already delivered ! ,many moons ago when these laws of religious rights were first voted for ! and agreed upon !.

Yes i think that’s the honest reality.

We cannot sit around continually crying over spilt milk can we ? , don’t we need to learn to be fully prepared to reap that what we sowed , or else decide some real changes are honestly long overdue and actually warranted and needed ?.

In this Fox article it states.

Charles’ ruling was overturned last month by New Jersey’s Appellate Court, which ruled that the husband’s religious beliefs were irrelevant and that the judge, in taking them into consideration, “was mistaken.”

Well thank goodness for some use of logic and good common sense.Why are religious beliefs what overrules over us ? .But lets not forget if we wish the rest of the world to change , then we must make our laws as unbiased as possible . Or else on what grounds would we ever ask that our own people should start to be treated well when traveling in their countries overseas also ?.

This article says
 
The woman’s lawyer, Jennifer Donnelly of New Jersey Legal Services, told FoxNews.com that Charles’ ruling should add to the case for a proposed Oklahoma law, which will be on the ballot in November, which would ban judges from considering “international law or Shariah Law” in their rulings.

Why pick on Sharia law ? .Why not make it unbiased .Why not have a ballot that simply stops all religion being overbearing and so overruling  ?.

This article says.
 
Those who don’t want the bill to pass say, ‘there’s really no need for it because why would a judge walk down that road of religion?'” Donnelly said.

That is quite true .But still obviously a problem actually exists . Obviously the laws of our lands still need to be updated and somewhat sorted out , because obviously some judges are still not sure and obviously some judges still figure maybe these rights to religious rights do still have the right to overrule us ? .

This article says.
 
“Clearly here, this judge did walk down that road. He may not have said ‘Shariah law.’ But I think it’s indicative that, in trying to be respectful of religion, judges venture into a very slippery slope.”

Yes how very true . Rights to religious rights is a very slippery slope , and many of us Ex EBs really do understand that . Many of us have found ourselves skidding around on this very nasty slippery slope , for nearly our whole lives , while we watched the religious right overrule our rights to enjoy our families that we were born among.

I.M.H.O …… It is almost only fitting , that its now the religious right that finds these ancient unfair laws coming back home to roost and start haunting some of them faithful folk also .

Sometimes its not until you finally get to wear another mans moccasins, that you finally realize just how smelly some type of moccasins can really become.

Dang it ! these shoes need changing

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About ExEB

I'm a agnostic/atheist . Interested in learning more about science. I also am an "ex-member" of a group most publicly known within modern times, as the Exclusive Brethren. Whom are an off-shoot of the original Plymouth Brethren group. I'd say it likely my personality could possibly be described as quirky.You know ,as in being , unconventional , unorthodox , unusual, off-centre, strange, bizarre, weird, peculiar, odd, freakish, outlandish, offbeat, out of the ordinary, bohemian, alternative, zany I'm sure iv'e been classed as "crazy" . Many times But then, being born into a group like the exclusive brethren. Doesn't lend itself ? to tend to produce things considered as being "very normal" .Does it I escaped the Exclusive Brethren cult as a 15 year old teenager. Even since that time iv'e been trying to adjust to living life outside the cult. With much of my life being lived within the genre of "wild colonial boy" style. In the general sense of a church-rebel picking and choosing from role models who appeared within-life along the way. But as the exclusive brethren cult had traditionally maintained a general church-rule , of need to shun and totally excommunicate any ex member of their group.Treating such people as if they were dead. Thus this situation developed more to do with my need of following traditionally enforced church-rule , as apposed to it being so much about "life-choices". Certain emotional experiences, and parts of life in general, have led to me adopting a sense of low self esteem. Which is a situation i still deal with from time to time. Through my ongoing interest in science. I find i am able to gather more information to help me better understand my situation. Much about life for me, has often seemed like a massive puzzle.With many missing pieces.
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4 Responses to Daring to Tear Open Pandora`s Box

  1. feeno says:

    G$

    I know it’s the 21st century but I bet a hundred years ago people were saying “I can’t believe this is still going on, it’s the 20 century after all. And 200 years ago there were saying the same thing. I bet in the 1st century they were saying that? And if were still around in another 1000 years we’ll still be saying it.

    That doesn’t prove anything or discredit your post it just shows how we are.

    But I’m for passing legislation that outlaws people hurting others peoples property or bodily self. And I don’t care if its by an Atheist an Exclusive Brethren member or a sweet little old Christian lady who goes to church every week.

    Should the “Brethren” be held to a higher standard than you?

    The only difference that I can see, is that the “religious” folk are just hypocrites. But their will be a higher legislation those folks will have to answer to.

    Thanks for the space, feeno

    • ExEB says:

      Howdy Feen you might be for passing legislation that outlaws people hurting others peoples property or bodily self , i know you well enough now to agree! you are one of the few faithful who might be willing to put their money where the mouth is.But that dont change the fact that mostly folks are not interested ,and seeing its the faithful folks most often in the majorities that need to be campaigning and voting these things to happen .The fact then also remains that faithfolks in general still seem far more worried about “themselves” losing religious rights , than they do about adding legislation that might help stop abuse of somebody.

      This case is just a fine example of just how this “religious right” attutude is utterly stupid .

      In my country i dont see any faith groups asking government to change legislation so the exclusive brethren and other abusive faiths dont get to continue to split and devide many families like they do ,as a “group” ,even causing some suicides .Its the same in your country ! the exclusive brethren exist there and broke up many families over the years . Where is the uproar from faithful folks in general? …Where is evidence of ANY faith groups campaigning Government ? your own faith group campaigning Feen ?.

      No in general , in any real honesty they just dont really care .They far to busy with campaigning about abortion or gay marriage etc.

      Over here in NZ if we dare campaign Government for change, folks of faith scream and moan and get together huddled in a group and call it persecution of faith …. Even though its their faiths thats actually been persecuting people for many years now.

      And besides they got the dollars to buy the politcians out . Take Australia and Kevin Rudd calls this group out as being a dangerous cult before the election , then gos quiet and does nothing about it after folks of faith groups approach him warning him of the dangerous implications of daring touching the slippery slope of “faith rights”.

      You said ..”But their will be a higher legislation those folks will have to answer to.”

      Well this thought might help you as a believer .But the only thing it does for me is make me realize how hopeless life is for many people in this world ,when they rely on people of faith who would trade their lives in this life , for hopes of some weird and whacky dream of some life and supposed judgment happening after death.

      It might make you feel better Feen .But to me this suggestion is little more than wishful thinking! , and does nothing much more than remind of the faith ignorance that set this all up to happen in the first place .

      However i understand you mean well .I do understand your thoughts are genuine .

      Just understand if your faith is wrong ,then your thought is worthless! other than further engraining this earth with a type of cancer that is already harming us.

      You know you have absolutely no way! to prove that what you suggested .And yet you claim it here, as being truth . What have i gained if you are wrong Feen ? . Nothing ! infact ive actually lost out by your faith ,because people of faith tend to promote the situation which sees folks worldwide pissing around waiting on Gods and the afterlife and hopes and dreams that folks will be repaid for these earthly losses.

      So in effect me and many other EX Ebs pay for your right to faith and hopes that there is hopefully some afterlife where everything will be put right .

      And yet even if there should be some afterlife ….That will not change what faith nastiness myself and many others experienced in this life .

      Our lives on this earth are gambled with by the faith gamblers of this earth .Our lives on this earth are wagered by faithfolks with faith that hopefully things will be put right.

      These faithful folk think this is some sort of fair deal .They think people like me should forget this life and bank on the hope of an afterlife existing.

      To be honest i dont think that much of faithfolks sense of what constitutes justice .

      But then i do understand they do really mean well ! … And i also do understand “devotion ” on all the “charisma” of faith , has been shown by science! can tend to shut down parts of the human brain that usually is supposed to deal with scepticism and making fair decisions .

      So its your “devotion” on all the “charisma” of faith, that tells you that my losses in this life that are due to faith promotion ,will supposedly be compensated for by your faith in a afterlife . You fully believe i will be compensated ,however sadly it wont do me any good if so happens you are wrong! .

      I will have lost out in this life , having paid for your right !,to have and promote such beliefs.

      The way you think Feen ,is almost exactly like a exclusive brethren thinks .Except the EB pushes it further.

      Feen says ..”Should the “Brethren” be held to a higher standard than you?”

      What you mean the law ? ,hell faiths have long run the laws of our lands .Why do you think so much pain has evolved .

      If you mean Gods ? , well where the hell are they? …They certainly dont seem to be doing much about these things ,unless sending faithful folks to sleepy “devoted” laa laa land can be considered as doing anything much other than making matters worse.

  2. Chris Graham says:

    Well, there is nothing wrong with making a ruling based on any religion so long as that ruling is still within the bounds of the Constitution. This judge’s ruling impeded the woman’s right to not be a slave for her husband, and her right to pursue happiness (because for her, a pursuit of happiness meant getting away from her husband’s advancing and raping penis, which the judge said she cannot do since her husband owns her).

    Also keep in mind that there is no such thing as a “separation of church and state” no matter how much anybody wants there to be. Neither that phrase nor any implication its concept is anywhere in the Constitution or in the Declaration of Independence.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with religion, but there is everything wrong with saying, “You’re my wife and you will do what I say because I own you and you’re gonna have sex with me now, slave! Now open your legs before I cut off your nose!” (Many liberals wouldn’t dare blame Islam for this Muslim attitude, but I do: the violence of Muslims and their hatred for Jews and women come directly from Mohammed’s very explicit teachings found all over the Qur’an.)

    • ExEB says:

      Howdy Chris ! ,thanks for the comment ! and thanks for blogging about the subject , and most of all for being kind enough to not seem to mind me discussing it further here on my own blog.

      First off i have already said i totally agree ! with you ,its wrong this man gets to treat his lady this way.

      I do tend to agree with you in all honesty there has never been much seperation of church and state .Thats most often still about the state of it , and look at the state of the countries we all live in .

      We dont need to go to any Muslim countries , to still find plenty of harm being imposed by faithful people on others .Never mind who`s actually worse at it than others might be ,personally im not interested in getting involved in school yard fights like children arguing back and forth about who threw the most stones or who started throwing stones first etc .

      I dont see what that shit ever achieves other than causing hatered between one group of children and another group .Far more is acheived by everyone simply admitting that stone throwing is wrong ,and can cause people some harm.

      Chris said ..”There is nothing inherently wrong with religion, but there is everything wrong with saying, “You’re my wife and you will do what I say because I own you and you’re gonna have sex with me now, slave! ”

      Chris i do agree with you its wrong for humans to treat their wives this way .

      But still depending on peoples personal way of translation of their chosen faith beliefs and the holy scripture they follow , these faith books can sometimes suggest some of these things as being ok .Which is why this Judge in this case was wary about his judgements .

      It might be easy for you and i to see this action this man took is morally wrong , but this judge was wary of making such judgments .It seems obvious his judgment was already coloured by the presense of this non seperation between matters of the state and peoples right to faith beliefs.

      For what type of justice would it be if the faith rights claimed by a muslim is seen to be blatantly disregarded ,while the rights of the polygamist or domineering baptist sect somewhere else goes totally untouched.

      See that is the real underlaying problem this scenario places this judge under .Sure he might like to simply shove this person in some jail where he mostly likely belongs , but then where does the slippery slope start and end . Judges are supposed to be consistant and fair , their judgments are supposed to be all about judging right from wrong! and not so much about judging which kids threw the most/biggest stones .

      Chris said..”(Many liberals wouldn’t dare blame Islam for this Muslim attitude, but I do: the violence of Muslims and their hatred for Jews and women come directly from Mohammed’s very explicit teachings found all over the Qur’an.)”

      Im not scared of being involved in discussing these matters .What i wont be involve in is trying to make one race out to be some type of demon and other races as not being . Im not interested in taking sides of children who are ALL involved in throwing stones , with one group making suggestions the other might have thrown bigger stones than they did. Thats bullshit ! ..That doesnt take away from the fact that if people didnt throw stones ,no stone throwing accidents would be happening.

      A certain amount of nastiness is found plastered all over the holy bible too ,otherwise nastiness within Christianity would not have ever been experienced , like it has been ! …. I can sure as hell vouch for it!

      Sure Muslims might make slaves of their women ,but so do a number of Christian groups , even if to some lessor extent .And just like this Muslim they often suggest its only acorrding to their faith belief what they follow , and the laws of the lands allow them the right to get away with it.

      Christian faiths even try imposing special dress codes on the followers , this is little different to what Muslims do to those in their faith , even be it to some higher or lessor extent.

      So Chris as an ex cult member im not at all interested in beating around some bush for the next hundred years ,bickering about which one might be worse than the other one.

      I just see it as it is . Both wrong ! …. Both lacking ! …. Both ignorant ! and both barbaric ! .

      You said..”Well, there is nothing wrong with making a ruling based on any religion so long as that ruling is still within the bounds of the Constitution.”

      Well my blog is all for peoples right to opinion and right to disagree .So im glad you speak your mind and tell us your personal opinion .

      My own opinion differs to you on this .I dont see how the Constitution of different lands can be thought above anyone elses .

      What rights we have here in NZ with regards to murder should be considdered little different elsewhere .And if the the states expects rights of Christians to be fair and protected in Muslim countries , then the states must be prepared to offer something much the same.Which is what i suggest this Judge kind of attempts doing.

      Dont get me wrong if i was the judge id simply send this man off to jail to learn something fast about how he cannot have the religious right to behave this way, and id be knocking! on some christian fundy church doors and dragging some of those abusive bastards off to jail too! where they belong also ! .

      I couldnt care less if it any of their faiths to abuse women because their holy bible scripture happen to suggest to them it might be ok for men to opress and lower the statice of women folk . By jove id sure make a bloody example of these Christian fundy folk ,so any Muslim abuser coming into the country would be well warned ! he wont be getting away with this type of bullshit either .

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