Faith = Culture

CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN  keeps suggesting i need to carry a cross .I keep asking myself why bother ?..Why ? carry a lump-o-wood around thats already acted like some nasty stumbling block for so many.Causing divisions and umpteen dozen dominations,sects,cults and suchlike.

Why would i carry any cross

How dare you not have any faith ! grrrrrrr

 

CAPTIAN JOHN COLMAN would very likely far prefer me to carry the “Christian Cross” too ! im sure …and would overlook all the variable cultural possibilitys that maybe would include had CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN been born Muslim instead…. CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN  might have been here in apostilization asking me to agree to become Islamic and  follow the Quran and depending on culture , maybe even expect me to ofter carry some bombs for beloved Muhammad , instead of a Christian cross for Jesus.

Scientific observation of all the available “data” thats been collected which is also just all the obvious evidence that surrounds us all in our lives . Provides us with more than enough evidence to conclude that = Faith “Evolves” from within the “brains” of our own  different special local cultures and religions we have either been “born into” or have been “converted” and indoctrinated with .

Its like pure and simple maths. Its created from thoughts within our own brains.

The evidence suggests : God doesnt ever personally speak with us , its always all the faithfully religious “human brains” within all the very many different groups of cultural religious “human minds” around us that manipulate the truth create the faiths and indoctrinate us !

ScienceDaily (Feb. 9, 2010) Quote : “There is no doubt that spiritual experiences and religion, which are ubiquitous across cultures and time and associated exclusively with humans, are ultimately based in the brain

No doubt “Spiritual Experiences” and “religion” based in the human brain

Quote :  “Citing several studies in moral psychology, the authors highlight the finding that despite differences in, or even an absence of, religious backgrounds, individuals show ))no difference in moral judgments ((for unfamiliar moral dilemmas. The research suggests that intuitive judgments of right and wrong seem to operate independently of explicit religious commitments.”

Had CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN been born in India instead ….Then CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN may very well have been  here scolding me instead ….for my having not agreed to go sacrificing a goat or a sheep last week

The main reason he is not ….is simply because he wasnt born and steeped deep within indoctrination of any Hindu Indian culture. Had CAPTAIN JOHN COLMAN been born Indian ….there would be very many more good chances he might indeed be of Hindu faith instead of being Christian

Had we been born back in far more ancient times , CAPTAIN JOHN CLOMAN might be here instead scolding me for not sacrificing my live baby in fire , in ritual of hope to be pleasing the Gods and producing more fertility for the whole community.

Time + generations and new knowledge = evolution of culture

IE :

1. A baby born in the USA ….is a baby that has far much less chance it will  ever become Islamic

2. A baby born in Afganistan ,Iraq etc  ….is a baby that has far much less chance it will ever become Christian.

Hense how we can come to a scientific conclusion that -Faith = Culture

Had we human honestly seen any evidence that “one particular” faith (Christianity or Islam ) was seen to spontaneously spring through into existence , in any honest “superstitious kind of way”, from a number of different “epicentres” (more than one) spaced all around the “globe” wherever this God was talking with men of the earth .

 Maybe if we saw evidence of Christianity “spontaneously” springing from the three epecentre`s Cananda , Africa and the South Pacific all at the same time !

Then that EVIDENCE mighty honestly seem like it were surely pointing toward some sort of special “supernatural intelligent design” being at work .

Supernaturally speading the faith “globally” by use of some sort of “supernatural intelligent design” and “divine guidence ” of the humans.

But NO we dont see that AT ALL….no we dont …We never ever have ! …What we do ALWAYS see is religion always as a very “humanly cultural” type thing evolving in raydiation out ! from within  “epicentre`s” of all the original lands where the “paticular” faith was first “invented”…They are being slowly spread “by the men” who`s ideas it first was. This is the CULTURAL effect that we see ….This phenomena is a very blatant and stark evidence… It is universally unanimously exactly the very same phenomena that is always being observed  everywhere = religion is totally culture

We have not seen evidence that Christianity spontaniously spung up from “more than one” culture.No we dont

We do see sign that Christianities roots are “culturally evolving” out from “only one spot” on the whole globe from within Judaism where it was first invented and formed by the minds and culture of those particular men of those ancient times .

Just as had already happened so many times already before Christianity arrived…..Humans had worshiped many other Gods ….Thor….Zues  you name it “humans have created” all these very many God faiths

This is the type of )))EVIDENCE((( that helps us conclude how religion = culture

Thanks to the HT from John over on Debunking Christianity …..Here is a video i saw that Richard Dawkins did that helps explain this type of situation . Except his video deals with debunking the myth of Noahs Ark .

Still if you replace the word “religious faith ” with the “animals” being discussed in this  Noah video. You can see that like the animals are all about culture , well religion is very much all about culture too.

1 .This video asks given the Noah Ark scenario and animals coming off Noah ark : then how come different animal appear in different places ?.

If the Noah story was true .Why is there is no kiwi birds also on mount Sini ?

2. I ask given supposedly God “honestly” is what guides people with “divine guidence” toward God . Why do we see so many “global gaps” between all the very many different faith beliefs ?

Both 1 and 2 point toward evolution.

The Islamist will try and excuse it by imposing God purposely chose to only speak through Muhammad….. Christians will try excusing it be imposing the claim God chose Jesus to speak through .

Why didnt God chose to speak through Maui  down here in New Zealand also instead ? .

If a OMNIPOTENT God honestly ever really spoke to humans with any sort of supernatural “divine guidence” , there is no good reason why “geography” or the  existence of “oceans” would have been anything to need to have created all the wide barriers between our faiths that we observe, that now show us exactly how extremely “culturally driven ” they ALL are

Check it out.

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About ExEB

I'm a agnostic/atheist . Interested in learning more about science. I also am an "ex-member" of a group most publicly known within modern times, as the Exclusive Brethren. Whom are an off-shoot of the original Plymouth Brethren group. I'd say it likely my personality could possibly be described as quirky.You know ,as in being , unconventional , unorthodox , unusual, off-centre, strange, bizarre, weird, peculiar, odd, freakish, outlandish, offbeat, out of the ordinary, bohemian, alternative, zany I'm sure iv'e been classed as "crazy" . Many times But then, being born into a group like the exclusive brethren. Doesn't lend itself ? to tend to produce things considered as being "very normal" .Does it I escaped the Exclusive Brethren cult as a 15 year old teenager. Even since that time iv'e been trying to adjust to living life outside the cult. With much of my life being lived within the genre of "wild colonial boy" style. In the general sense of a church-rebel picking and choosing from role models who appeared within-life along the way. But as the exclusive brethren cult had traditionally maintained a general church-rule , of need to shun and totally excommunicate any ex member of their group.Treating such people as if they were dead. Thus this situation developed more to do with my need of following traditionally enforced church-rule , as apposed to it being so much about "life-choices". Certain emotional experiences, and parts of life in general, have led to me adopting a sense of low self esteem. Which is a situation i still deal with from time to time. Through my ongoing interest in science. I find i am able to gather more information to help me better understand my situation. Much about life for me, has often seemed like a massive puzzle.With many missing pieces.
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22 Responses to Faith = Culture

  1. tinaf07 says:

    What about you? With all that’s being said about faith and beliving out there (in this planet); what is or was your personal experience with God?

    • ExEB says:

      Tinaf07 What about you? With all that’s being said about faith and beliving out there (in this planet); what is or was your personal experience with God?

      Hi Tina my personal experience with God was about the same as my personal experience with the tooth fairy , or Santa or Ghosts .

      Its hard to have a “personal experience” with somthing that all evidence suggests only exists within the human mind. What is your personal experience with the tooth fairy Tina ?. Have you had a personal relationship with Muhammad ? .What about your personal experience with Vishnu , Shiva , Saraswati and Lakshmi ?

      My experience with God was that God = Culture …. Gods work was never even seen , i only ever saw work and ideas of men . I was very open to having a personal experiences with God but no matter how much i worshiped or prayed , no honest evidence of any personal relationship with any supreme being happened ….I also noticed God never seemed to be honestly at work among others ….There was no signs by way of honest evidence to suggest that faithful people were walking with any holy spirit , like they often lay claims to happening.

      When CAPTAIN JOHN comes here onto this blog and starts making brimstone and hellfire threats …..I dont see anything of a “supernatural” imprint written within in any of his words or thoughts or actions …. I only see another man of religion….A Christian coverted man trying to use biblical threats to strike fear into my mind so as to torment my thoughts of death.

      When i see the Pope involved in covering up sex abuse ….. I know im “personally experiencing” a complete void of absolutely any evidence of the existence of God-s . God is nowhere to be seen while Popes and catholic priests try dodging the evidence of sexual abuse thats been hidden within the Catholic faith …..Do we see the Pope or Catholic preists ever arrive in the news looking “white in the face” and fearful all claiming they had a spiritual experience with God , who demanded they hurry up and be honest ….and admit the sexual abuse ?.

      No we never ever do ….We only ever see Popes and Priests that act and behave in a way thats purely “totally human” ….There is absolutely no honest sign that any “divine guidence” exists around them .

      More often than not the only evidence we see thats connected to faith , is it makes the faithful turn into hateful nasty bigots , take a look at all the strife and wars , see the blatant evidence of the Muhammad faith turning muslims into nasty bigots who dispise and hate Christians ….Look at all the Christians who`s faith turns them into bigots that start to dispise and hate Muslim Islamists

      And both these groups dispise any who dont believe in Gods .

      Tina this is all part of my personal experience of the “faith of Gods” ….. My experience tells me all the faiths do exist , but the God written about within all these faith …never ever shows his/her face ….. Never ever displays any HONEST evidence that he/she actually exists .

      My experience with God seems to match entirely with the conclusion of science , Gods are “ultimately based in the human brain“

      Think about this if God exists and honestly provides “divine guidence” to man …… What happened at 9/11 in downtown New York ? … What happened when George Bush and Tony Blairs prayers to God led them into a war on people filled with lots of lies concerning weapons of mass distruction ? ….Did this God go off on holiday that week ? …. Was he just tired of “divinely guiding” people that month ? .

      Like i said my personal experience with the idea of Gods , points toward their “non existence”

      My personal experience suggests “to me” that like sciences ALSO suggests , Gods are only a mere figment of all the faithful humans minds

      People will say …”oh no ! but i feel i do have this personal experience with my God ”

      Some kids do HONESTLY feel they DO have a very “personal experience” with some monsters they are quite convinced and fully believe , DO hide under their beds too

      Some folk do HONESTLY believe they see ghosts and can also talk to the dead , they honestly believe they have had a “personal experience” with this .

      Some folk do HONESTLY believe that they have been abducted by Aliens , and also HONESTLY believe they have had a personal experience with Aliens in their space craft , where they have been subjected to anal probes too

      Tina …can i be HONEST and say yes i have had a personal experience with GODS,GHOSTS ,ALIENS who do anal probes

      No i cant say that ….Not if im to be HONEST

      I can be HONEST and say i have had plenty of PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with humans who`s MINDS have their human intellect faithfully believing in many things that cannot be freely experienced to actually exist.

      The human mind is forever inventing ideas ….This is how humans learn to invent things …Our minds wander ….Our minds are forever searching to learn new things . Our minds are very creative , this is what helps some people write “books of fiction”

      There is nothing wrong with a mind that wanders and trys to learn and invent new things . This is helpful to us when we think of and create new inventions that help us .

      But its best if humans can also learn how to be EXTREMELY HONEST , so as to also know when they should be drawing a line somewhere between what is fiction and what is fact .

      Otherwise we will continue to keep paying the price like we always have .

  2. ExEB says:

    1 . Some loon called dzul with blog http://kitabqu.wordpress.com/ and email qarnaen@hotmail.com
    comments and says to me :

    ” NOW I KNEW YOU GROWN UP & YOUR BRAIN FULL OF TURD

    >>>>> SO
    >>>>>>JUST
    >>>>>>>SHUT
    >>>>>>>YOUR
    >>>>>>>STINK
    >>>>>>>>MOUTH
    >>>>>>>>FUCK OFF

    DUMB ASSHOLE LIAR LIKE YOU UNCAPABLE TO
    KNOW ABOUT ISLAM

    BECAUSE YOUR BRAIN FULL OF STINK TURD

    ::::: YOU KNOW “

    This faithful Loons brain , obviously HONESTLY faithfully believes …. it makes this comment here on this blog , with use of some “divine guidence of Allah”

    Does Allah ? honestly wish his followers to make Allahs guidence look to the WHOLE WORLD like he is a brainless idiotic imbecile , who has little other to say than childish shit like : Shut your stink mouth , Fuck off , Stink Turd blah blah bleat bleat

    If not , why then does “Allahs divine guidence” make this silly person here act up like a brainless demented imbecile ? .

    So much for the “divine guidence” given by Gods …. These Gods lead men`s minds toward PUBLICALLY acting up like they are posessed by UTTER STUPIDITY and belong to the following of demented imbeciles

    2. This faithfully brain-dead person goes on in another comment to also say : dzul said

    “I KNEW IT WHEN YOU WERE A BABY ::::::
    YOU DID NOT REALIZED IF YOU LOVED TO ATE YOUR OWN TURD :::::
    & DRANK YOUR OWN URINE
    :::::::::::

    WHERE WAS YOU% BRAIN AT THAT TIME
    ::::: HEY DUMB IDIOT ASSHOLE “

    3 . And another comment : dzul says :

    “I SUGGESTED YOU ::::TO ENTER THE ZOO TO KNOW IT ::::::: THAT YOUR BEHAVIOR NEARLY HAVE SIMILARITY WITH DIRTY WILD SWINE
    WHICH LIKES TO EAT IT’S OWN TURD”

    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Ohh dear ….. L.o.L ….. Tina hope you are watching this stark “blatant evidence” that this dzul dude so very publically displays …This has also always very often been EXACTLY the type of “personal experience” ive also had whenever being involved in dealing with any people of faith who DO ALSO MAKE CLAIMS of having had personal experience and divine guidence from Gods

    dzul publically displays here what effect his “personal experience” with “God” does to help “dement” his own faithfully demented mind. And dzul happily publically displays that the “Islamic Gods” act of “DIVINE GUIDENCE” obviously ! helps lead dzul into totally loosing his head ! and acting like he`s become like a complete brainless headless chook ! flapping its wings in a big flap …while frantically running around in complete circles getting absolutely no where .

    dzuls Gods “divine guidence” tells dzul that maybe this is a really smart move ? , just as i also NOTICED and OBSERVED that it also seems Gods “divine guidence” tells the Exclusive and Renton brethren that it might be a really be such a honestly smart thing to try claiming James Taylor was still a pure man …. and to also make such utterly stupid and very “obviously false” claims ! …. that their Christian cults never ever did split up any families or cause any people to commit suicide either.

    Many of these people of faith seem to think the rest of the world might be just stupid and faithfully dumb as they obviously are . That they seem to think they can continue onward simply being as “totally dishonest” as they please to be , and so stuck within the “charisma” of total “devotion to faith” syndrome are they …. that it seems they foolishly think the rest of the world will be “faithful enough” to just continue to faithfully believe and keep TURNING A BLIND EYE to such utterly blatant lies also.

    This is just NOT going to happen . Humanity is waking up to all the VERY TRADITIONAL lies and deceit that have existed within many circles of faith now for such a very long time …… The game is up !

    Faithful folk need to start to learn that some folk on this planet DO study the

      available evidence honestly

    If we see humans acting like morons , this DOES NOT …i repeat …DOES NOT ! do anything much to “help” honestly support the faithfuls ancient “theory” of the supposed existence of any Gods that supposedly do supply humans with “divine guidence”

    No it doesnt help support this ancient theory …Indeed if anything it helps humanity deny it !

    Many faithful humans seem to be fully intent ! on providing us with as much good evidence as is humanly possible , that BLATANTLY points towards and seems to help “totally deny” the “theory” of Gods , and makes scientific type conclusions that DO seem to suggest its VERY LIKELY that it seems it looks like absolutely no honest evidence of “gods” or “divine guidence” honestly even seems to exist ! .

    I will not be approving any comments made by this dzul .

  3. tinaf07 says:

    If no relationship happended after you prayed and worshipped why didn’t you take it any further, read the whole bible, ask God openly to reveal himsef to you through his word, without focusing on what everyone else is doing wrong. At least you know you didn’t sale yourself short of what would become a meaningful freedom from the bondage of sin. Of course none of this is possible without personal faith AKA trust in God. Not trust in human mistakes AKA the pope and governments. I don’t have faith in any of them personally I’m an anarchist.

    • ExEB says:

      We read the bible over and over and we read all the ministry books as well , tinafo7 ,and then went and worshiped at our church 7days a week too.

      But thats the thing if sombody can read any holy book enough times soon enough they will start believing somethings being revealed to them.Its because its centered within the human minds . Christians,Islamist,Buddists,Hindu whatever ….all will believe this God is busy revealing something special to them if they focus enough on this “thought”

      Some folks start believing that the KGB or the IRA is trying to track them down , if they “focus” enough on this “thought” of the mind .

      Some folks will believe Aliens have abducted them , if they decide to focus enough on that human “thought”

      tinaf07 if any evidence for God existed … science would be likely to have found it

      The thiest scientists would be extremely glad to promply display it .

      I just see no reason to trust Gods Tinaf07 , when i see no reason they exist.

      Its like me telling you to have faith in Aliens ….Never mind if you honestly think they exist or dont exist …Just have faith that they do exist !

      I could pretty much pick any other idea too, and say exactly the same thing

      But it doesnt really acheive anything.

  4. tinaf07 says:

    YOU: We read the bible over and over and we read all the ministry books as well , tinafo7 ,and then went and worshiped at our church 7days a week too.

    But thats the thing if sombody can read any holy book enough times soon enough they will start believing somethings being revealed to them.
    ME:
    Everything you said about your experience with church is in plural. We, Somebody; my original question is about you and you only. What is the turning point in your own, personal life that made you doubt having a personal relationship with God?

    • ExEB says:

      Tinaf07 said ..”What is the turning point in your own, personal life that made you doubt having a personal relationship with God?”

      Hi Tina .Sorry if im honest about it, there wasnt really any turning point. The truth is there never was any personal relationship with God.

      If people ever do have this “personal relationship” with God they all talk about .How do Theists explain the phenomena of people culturally evolving to all end up having this “personal relationship” with the God that so happens to belong to the culture they are born in or end up converting to ?.

      What im saying is , a Hindu , a Islamist , a Buddist , a Christian , a Mormon , a scientologist , a Westboro baptist etc etc

      They all claim to honestly have this “personal relationship” with “the” one and only supreme Being/God

      So who`s telling the truth ? . They cannot all be telling the truth !. Unless this God suffers from a type of Schizophrenia ? , and cant make up his mind ! and teaches Christianity one moment ! then Islam the next ! , then tells a Hindu to get busy sacrificing chickens and goats or something ! , while the scientologist supreme-whatever-being is SUPPOSEDLY telling them something comepletely different !!

      My point is Tina …. The human mind can talk itself into having faith in most anything …. Thats why some people are ALSO so completely postively sure that yes indeed the mafia or KGB or IRA is supposedly chasing them , even though there is no such evidence of any such thing honestly ever happening ! …..And some peoples minds will even fully convince themselves , that yes indeed they are 100% sure ! that they have indeed been abducted by Aliens , and some will also fully believe they have been subjected to anal probes

      Thus we can scientifically conclude the Human mind is indeed full of very much imagination , Tina .

      Most of us were never even offered the freedom to be honest about faith/non faith in God … You simply believed ,or else you were in trouble .

      And its a well known historic truth that theists and folks of faith have traditionally been quite happy to try and inforce this type of indoctrination , by freely using fear tactics , such as suggestions of a place called Hell , as a way to torment the humans mind and manipulate thier psychology … So as to have the effect of making them fear having any lack of faith.

      Historically this is the sort of deceitful type practice that has almost always been the “trade mark” of faith indoctrination tactics .

      I remember being about 6-7 years old and discussing such matters with my mother , how in my mind what little evidence there was of any sign for the psysical presense of God , considdering God was somebody we worshipped and prayed to so often .

      And as usual i was fed the usual rhetoric , like God works in mysterious ways , and its no business of ours ,God will do what ever he does .

      I remember thinking …Holy heck ? …This games rigged ?? mighty well …. Cause no matter what ever happens …humans can still ALWAYS make the claim it was evidently all Gods work

      There was no turning point …. My lack of faith was due to observation and experience that developed over my life time.

      Almost everywhere i look i see evidence that seems to blatantly point to the extreme lack of absolutely any “divine intervention” or “intellectual supernatural design” at all .

      From Islamic bombers through to Catholic Priests that dig their heals in regarding matters of exposing pedophiles , through to Westboro Baptists that run around saying “God Hates Ya” , through to Hindus busy sacrificing pools of animals blood in town centres , through to what happens among scientologist , or among Jim Jones followers or Exclusive and Renton Brethren

      I never see hand of any God ….I never ever see any HONEST sign that any “divine intervention” is honestly happening . …There is no sign of a supernatural clockmaker that shows sign of being involved giving any certian group of faithful people anything that could honestly be classed as “divine guidence”

      And if God existed and “divine guidence” existed .

      There is no good reason why humans shouldnt see some extremely obvious sign of the actual honest existed of this sort of phenomena . That is if it honestly exists

      1. We can pour petrol into car and freely observe the scientific evidence of the effect pouring petrol into cars has on cars motion.

      2. There is no good reason we shouldnt also see scientific evidence concluding that belief in God honestly helps provide possibility of “divine guidence”

      If its truth, the effect confirms the evidence.

      We dont see that sort confirming type evidence …… We see exactly the opposite ……We see EVIDENCE that faith tends to )))correlate((( with culture….. We see so many differing faith existing , and absolutely no sign of any “divine presense” thats giving humans any special type of directions or universal divine guidence … That might help suggest and confirm phenomena of )))”the”((( God

      There is no particular turning point in my atheism Tina .

      My atheism is due to observing and experiencing my life time , and the conclusions i have finally come to is due to much thought spent in great depth , and getting my mind into a psychological position of not allowing any residual indoctrinated “fear” to ever stand in the way of me being aware of only ever seeking for the complete truth ! .And so as such i have never let fear stop me simply being completely honest about what ever it is i know ive both experienced and observed.

      One needs to never fear thinking outside of the box

      Whenever that happens .Most often its because there is sombody who doesnt like you knowing the honest truth.

      1.Most often the truth tends to find it “very easy” to stand on its own merit .

      2 .Faith in God-/s doesnt ever stand on its own merit . Faith in God-/s always relys on indoctrination and can be seen to be blatantly very cultural

      Hense all the “data” collected with regard to faith in God “correlates” with being centered ENTIRELY within “MINDS” of men

      We can conclude this …because the phenomena we ALL observe and experience – points toward absolutely no evidence of any “supernatural intelligent design” with regard to formation of religion that humans are involved in .

      IE : There is no evidence that God guides anyone ….. We only ever see ! evidence that Human minds always choose what faith it will be and what it will be called or what the particular rules will be etc …which means it all = human design

    • ExEB says:

      Tina.

      1. A Catholic saying i have experienced divine guidence and i know its from God

      is exactly the same evidence as the Muslim saying

      3. I know i receive divine guidence from Muhammad

      is exactly the same evidence as a scientologist

      4 …saying i know my Scientologist God give me divine guidence

      is exactly the same evidence as a African

      5 saying killing these chickens are helping guide my life

      Do you understand this Tina ? …. The evidence concludes faith is always relative to the culture and brain of each different Human being

      1 .But to be honest evidence to help us conclude ..yes God obviously honestly does exist

      2 . We should see some obvious evidence of a “supernatural intelligent design” helping “guide” humans in a certain particular special direction . That way we would know its supernatural

      However ALL the faiths we ever see on earth , show plenty of OBVIOUS evidence pointing toward something completely “natural” …Its a “natural” phenomena behind faith …that always correlates with culture and tradition and human brains

  5. tinaf07 says:

    well, I am open minded if I wasn’t I would’ve never became an anarchist. I would’ve believed everything my government controlled education and newscaster tells me. I have in fact experienced God and is not the same for everyone. There are Christians in Atheist,Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu nations despite the government imposed mandates they live under that bands freedom of religion. I have read their stories seen their video interviews. People in United States have freedom of religion. We have more Christians here because Christians are able to worship here without extreme oppression that other nation’s Christians face. Faith does not equal culture, it’s overwhelming evidence to sustain this. Just try an open a church in China, Saudi Arabia, sell bibles at your privately own store and watch as the government sends a bulldozer to roll right over it all. I’m sorry but I’ve read outside of my American Christian bubble and there’s a lot that the bible proves about human nature that no scientific experiment can measure. That’s why there’s logic, reasoning, and philosophy. Love. hate, betrayal, intelligence and hope are not quantified numerically; they exist nonetheless and affect everyone. Not every atheist stays an atheist and not every christian stays a christian. Faith is personal journey that happens when a human spirit puts their trust and hope in something they think is worth living and dying for. It can never be defined by our culture humans are not that predictable and controllable like that. We have an untouchable spirit that can go against the grain of forced beliefs and and a faith we can take to the grave. Some have done this.

    • ExEB says:

      Hi Tina thanks again for your comment. And yes i would tend to agree you do seem the open minded type.But besides that opinion of mine i wasnt even meaning to suggest your were not open minded . I was more interested in pointing out how important it is .

      I do fail to understand how you could be a honest anarchist unless you believe in a lawless state whereby even drinkers would be given the right to drive while not fit to drive . To be honest an anarchrist society reminds me of a picture of a dragon that ends up eating its own tail . I doubt humans could even survive for very long by rule of anarchy.

      You said …..” Faith does not equal culture, it’s overwhelming evidence to sustain this

      Tina could you supply me even one bit of scientific evidence to help support this type of claim ? ,,,Theists are allowed to become scientist also Tina , and dont think for one moment if Theist scientist thought there was any possibility to back this sort of claim up with science …They wouldnt bother … Goodness me if Theists scientists even got a wee sniff that this might be a real possibility …They would very soon be clambering like a herd of run away Elephants ..to very promptly do so

      The simple fact is they already know there is no real possibility of this .They know there has already been enough peer reviewed scientific studies that show that faith is connected to the human brain

      If Theist scientists thought this could be disproved ,dont you think some would be very promptly doing so Tina ?

      But putting that aside you said : ” There are Christians in Atheist,Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu nations despite the government imposed mandates they live under that bands freedom of religion

      That is very true . But this fact proves very little , for the simple fact it overlooks that even if these different folks do exist with these societies , the fact still remains the overbearing main stream culture of societies is what culture we always see shines through as being whats most mainstream . Always . For instance in the USA the mainstream culture at the moment is still Christian, and as such the mainstream culture we see shining through is Christian.

      You said …”people in United States have freedom of religion. We have more Christians here because Christians are able to worship here without extreme oppression that other nation’s Christians face

      You try telling that to Obama while he finds so many people implying he might be Muslim or Islamic or what ever else those folks from your ” freedom of religion ” USA try nailing him with …You try telling the athiests very many who still fear to be honest and admit being atheist , for fear of reprocussions , that you believe the USA is honestly about “freedom of religion ” and has no cultural pressures.

      Tina you have even been overlooking that culture within your own country has indeed been very much involved in shaping and helping define what faith people should have.

      I still dont consider you closed-minded type however , because in my opinion this problem is just a matter of many people not digging deep enough . Or more the fact that this cultural shaping of religion is considdered such a normal thing , that many people dont even think about these matters in any great depth.

      You said …” Just try an open a church in China, Saudi Arabia, sell bibles at your privately own store and watch as the government sends a bulldozer to roll right over it all

      Thats all very true Tina , and i totally agree . However this also shows just how faith is often shaped by culture . I can say the same thing about the USA , i could say you just try being in business in the USA while admitting to being an atheist and see how well and how long your business will last ….I could say you just try running for president of the USA and freely admit being an atheist , and see just how far you will get . …I could say you just try admitting to Christian family and friends that you have become atheist , and find out how many will totally disown and dispise you !

      Little difference is there really Tina ? the difference can only be measured in degrees , once we leave the biased thoughts aside ..that try telling us that maybe we do honestly live in a country where honest freedom of religion actually do exist and no culture ever shapes religion .

      But the fact is this idea is false .

      All this stuff helps prove is that yes ! , like science already suggests , faith is directly correlating with our mainstream cultures , cultures which connect to thoughts in our brains.

      You might try and suggest ,well Christianity has grown very fast in the world and so that fact there suggest there must be some ” supernatural ” reason why Christianity did as well as it did , but then you would need to overlook that Islam has been doing better than Christianity lately ? , so going by that idea then it would suggest maybe Islam is the right position …. However as ive been saying its all about culture .

      However in saying all this there is no reason why humans cannot roll-against the flow with regards to culture inforced faiths …..And that is what has been seen in places like China …And is also what has been seen lately within the USA also , with regard to atheism definitely being on the uprise ! in a big way .

      So this shows culture cannot stop the will of the people if they are determined enough

      So i put it to you what more could make people extremely determined other than the HONEST fact that some particular God was honestly speaking to certain people and honestly giving them some sort of “divine guidence ” leading them all in a personal relationship toward one religion (lets say this particular religion God chose was Christianity for the sake of this argument)

      That would be some real honest scientific type data that would indeed honestly suggest some sort of supernatural intelligent design was indeed honestly taking place …. If we suddenly saw very many Muslims and Chinese and Hindus etc all rising up together and for no obvious reason suddenly wanting to convert to christianity , as if the need to do so had been implanted within all of their minds by some calling of a very supernatural nature .

      This is the type of “objective” data needed to help prove that God honestly does have personal relationships with people.

      But we dont ever see that type of phenomena do we Tina ….. No we never ever do see such a thing .. …not ever in all history have we ever seen any such phenomena taking place ……We have so many people all claiming they have these personal relationships with God-/s , yet we see absolutely no evidence that correlates with any tytpe of supernatural designed movement taking place . …The moment always correlates with the surrounding culture and peer pressures that exist around us .

      For instance if the colonialist wishes to convert the natives of another country into Christianity , can the priests and pastors etc ? , simply pray to God to please go have a special personal relationship with these native folk , so as to initiate the feeling of their need to convert to Christianity with use of some Godly supernatural intelligent design , Tina ? .

      No this never ever happens does it Tina ..Never ever ! ……And yet if God is truly almighty then there is absolutely no reason at all why this could not easily become very possible . Absolutely no reason it would be impossible for an almighty omnipotent God …. It would be a piece of cake !

      Except for the fact the religion = culture ……And we do indeed see plenty of scientific evidence that confirms that people never ever start converting to religion , until the culture of that particular religion first enters their own country also. …. Faith is never ever seen to convert people , without the culture of that particular faith being in existence around those people ….Even in China ….Christianity has absolutely no hope of converting Chinese …until the Christians go to China carrying the culture of Christianity along with them .

      So this fact proves that without the culture entering a country , then the religion will not have any possibility it will exist …..Proving without much doubt that yes indeed religion does = culture

      Now im totally open minded to you showing me any evidence that suggests anything different Tina … This is why im an agnostic/atheist

      Infact i like to think a lot like science and good science is not ever ashamed to admit being wrong if indeed that is the honest truth. I fully intend to always remain the same way.

      You said …” I’m sorry but I’ve read outside of my American Christian bubble and there’s a lot that the bible proves about human nature that no scientific experiment can measure.

      Would you like to provide me with an example ? ….Admittedly science cannot speak for itself , science still needs humans to help define the conclusions , by calculations taken from reading and examining all of the data thats been collected .

      And i understand that science still needs peoples philosophy and ideas to help intiate the ideas people will take up . But none of this dismisses the fact that science is what helps provide us with more truths .

      You seem to be maybe be saying? something like , science cannot help prove love , hate ,betrayal ,intelligence and things ? …If this is what you suggest then im not so sure i agree …For starters we already do have scientific type tests we do use to help test peoples intelligence . And im not convinced that a scientific type method cannoy be adapted to help prove many matters about all these other things you mention also.

      Science is not something that can never be wrong , science is just a way humans can try their best to find matters of truth … Sometimes they might finally find out certain truths , only after having made certain mistakes .

      But still this does not fault science …all it proves is that science can sometime be wrong until it finds better facts that help prove matters that are more closer to the truth.

  6. tinaf07 says:

    YOU:I do fail to understand how you could be a honest anarchist unless you believe in a lawless state whereby even drinkers would be given the right to drive while not fit to drive . To be honest an anarchrist society reminds me of a picture of a dragon that ends up eating its own tail . I doubt humans could even survive for very long by rule of anarchy.
    ME: That’s what public school and TV tells us. But there have been anarchist societies they are not lawless by any means. The bible has one. The children of Israel. Lived in an anarchist society for generations before they had their first King. They had laws the Ten commandments to name a few. They were prosperous but they wanted to bring wealth in from neighboring nations (pre-capitalist days) so they consented to a King for representation purposes. Anarchy is not this impossible untried dream. It’s a free market that has volunteer laws and privately insured security, private justice. Everyone has to compete fairly. The government is chaos. They have millions of people killed all over the world through various avoidable wars yet we trust them so blindly. I read the facts. It’s all about consent. Grown adults allowing other grown adults to run their life by FORCE not volunteerism, which is what anarchist Justice and Law would look like. If everything designed by government was so great they wouldn’t need to force us to follow it. The private sector is capable of doing everything the government can do “good” without the plunder funds (taxes) It has been written and is being tried all over the world as markets get freer and freer.

    • ExEB says:

      Hi Tina thanks again for your comment.

      You said ” That’s what public school and TV tells us.”

      Well maybe . But im not the type to follow the thoughts and opinions of others like im a sheep .Im far more like a cat and think about stuff and make up my own opinion based on reading some of what others suggest , thinking it through for some time , doing a little more research , until i come to a conclusion . I understand i can still be wrong . Im not against admitting im wrong either and agreeing to change my mind . On the issue of an anarchrist society, my opinion is not based on any public school or TV tells us or what anyone says.Its my own opinion.

      You said …“But there have been anarchist societies they are not lawless by any means”

      Any system which evidently seeks to diminish or even abolish authority yet remain lawful , seems “to me” like an oxymoron . How does a community remain lawful without some sort of authority ?.

      You said ..” The children of Israel. Lived in an anarchist society for generations before they had their first King. They had laws the Ten commandments to name a few.

      Then what kind of honest anarchism is this ? . If they have commandments why is that so much different than laws within society .

      You said .. ” It’s a free market that has volunteer laws and privately insured security, private justice.

      Much of places like Somalia have a kind of free market running too Tina . Gangs that form around places in our cities provide some of their own laws , that folk in the area kind of volunteer to run with .Although its not like they have a whole lot of choice . Its kinda close to a type of anarchism there thats happening

      Dont get me wrong i like the idea of the freedom , but the freedom creates problems for somebody and sooner or later some sort of law and order need to be introduced .

      That said i agree within our socities the state can become far to overbearing .

      However just imagine what type of society we might live in if we did have a type anarchist rule .The larger christian group might demand they be allowed to treat their children any how ever they please .Children could become just like folks owning a dog or a cat or a cow , children might have very few rights of their own.

      No i dont see that society is ready for any type of anarchism . Hell some christian groups already get away with treating some people bad enough already. In an anarchist type society what rights would the gay folk have Tina?

      The way i see it if anarchism honestly worked so very well , then surely more systems would quite likely have already adopted it

  7. tinaf07 says:

    well all of your projections are wrong. They come from opinion not logic. You have alot of reading to do. First thing you should read about is economics, second you should read the bible. Because your opinions have nothing to do with what’s really going on in reality. They are just what makes us feel a certain way. You should look at what EVRYONE has to say on the issue not run with your opinion like it’s fact. Scientific method does not by any means replace God. Read Logic by Ludvig Von Mises. He’s an agnostic and easly disproved the scientific method as some God replacing doctrine. He’s wasn’t even a Christian. Read the bible, they new Testament especially. Just so you can get an insight on Human nature. Your comments show that you have alot more to realize about good and evil. The government is an evil. Read Murray M, Rothbart for anarchy. I’m not telling you what to believe, I’m saying your opinions can only take you so far.

    • ExEB says:

      Hi Tina , thanks again for your comments . And happy new Year ! .

      You said …” well all of your projections are wrong. They come from opinion not logic.”

      I understand . But still the same can very easily be said about what you say here in that sentence , specially until you provide reasons ! and evidence to back up your claim that my opinion is nothing more than opinion.

      You said ..” First thing you should read about is economics, second you should read the bible

      Well i admit not knowing a whole lot about economics , but i dont need to know about economics to understand that anarchist just wouldnt work/survive .

      You said : ….. ” You should look at what EVRYONE has to say on the issue not run with your opinion like it’s fact.

      Tina if i wasnt prepared to look at what everyone has to say , then id have turned off the ability for other people to comment here on this blog . Just because i think science is a good thing , doesnt mean im not prepared to consider being wrong …For that type of ignorant manner would be far more akin to theism .

      Its the Theist who get stuck on thinking they are right Tina …Take alook at the Theist morons in the Jim Jones type cults , that dont dare to considder they could be wrong , and end up dead as door nails because of it …..Take a look at the morons following Benny Hinn types , getting fleeced for dollars they work so hard for… Hard work that ends up making Benny Hinn types awfully rich ! , simply because theist wont even intertain the mere possibility they might be giving their money to a complete fraud … Thats faith Tina ..Faith is about the stubborn matter of not being prepared to wonder if somebody might be wrong = FAITH

      Science on the other hand just isnt even honest science UNLESS it is prepared to wonder if something might be wrong in the conclusions .

      Because if science got to the stage that wasnt prepared to consider if it might be wrong …then it wouldnt be HONEST science anymore …. NO ….for then it would be all about…FAITH……. and faith is what THEISM is about

      Do i think science is always honest ? … No maybe not …But the thing with science is there is always room for other scientists to do the study and tests and find the evidence …with which this Scientist can have the ability to prove previous science conclusions to be wrong.

      Theism does not work this way.Theism like science has a theory and a conclusion but because its about FAITH , it disagree`s with the idea that there is any real need for scientific evidence

      Hense why its called—> FAITH

      You said …” Scientific method does not by any means replace God

      Would you like to expand on this opinion of yours ? . ….In my opinion ..sure its true ! science cannot replace a God that doesnt exist …a God that never did exist ….. Just as science cannot replace the tooth fairy either or the pink unicorns ..Its just not easy to replace something that never existed . I could make the claim that Tina could never replace the nick-knack thingy-ma-jig for the gooses bridle too….And no matter what Tina says ,,i keep saying NO you still havent replaced the nick-knack thingy-ma-jig for the gooses bridle Tina

      On the bases that i simply make the claim that a nick-knack thingy-ma-jig for a goose bridle actually does exist , could you ever prove to me you have actually replaced it Tina ?

      You said …” Read Logic by Ludvig Von Mises. He’s an agnostic and easly disproved the scientific method as some God replacing doctrine

      Tina could you please provide some links to where this Ludwig Von Mises suggests science can never replace God , id be very interested in reading about it . But im not really a book buff . Im not the type who enjoys trolling through endless amounts of reading …. But no this doesnt stop me from looking at any important parts of book that people wish me to take a look at …Yes even parts of absolutely any books that Theists do suggest .

      But just after taking a short google at what a few other people have had to say about this Ludwig Von Mises guy . I see there are some folk who even suggest Ludwig wasnt suggesting anything to do with anarchism

      Quote : Society cannot do without a social apparatus of coercion and compulsion, i.e. without state and government. The Anti-Capitalist Mentality, p. 90.

      Quote : There are people who call government an evil, although a necessary evil. However, what is needed in order to attain a definite end must not be called an evil … Government may even be called the most beneficial of all earthly institutions as without it no peaceful human cooperation, no civilization and no moral life would be possible. Economic Freedom and Interventionism, p. 57.

      Quote : Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. Liberalism, pp. 36-7. Liberalism [in the European sense-the philosophy of free markets and limited government] differs radically from anarchism. It has nothing in common with the absurd illusions of the anarchists… Liberalism is not so foolish as to aim at the abolition of the state. Omnipotent Government, p. 48

      Quote : [Anarchists are] shallow-minded, dull, [and suffer from] illusions and self-deception. The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science, pp. 98-9.

      You said …. ” Read the bible, they new Testament especially. Just so you can get an insight on Human nature. Your comments show that you have alot more to realize about good and evil.

      I read the bible Tina . Plus i have seen and experienced all the damage its had on the minds of humans that do read and follow it . If i wanted to suggest a book to help somebody become more mean nasty and evil , i`d tell them to go read the bible . Take a look at Captain John Colmans attitude is like toward me questioning these matters …What is Captain John Colmans attitude like ? , seem to me like they are full of threats of hell and damnation and as such pretty controling mean and nasty….Jim Jones folk read the bible too ,what happen with them ? some real mean and nasty shit didnt it Tina …Catholic church folk read the bible too Tina , and what happened to the sexual abuse that really needed to be quickly exposed ? , damn mean and nasty shit that tried its very best to keep hiding it thats what… .Westboro baptist read the bible too Tina , does it do them any good ? no seems it turns them very hateful mean and nasty Tina

      Now i could keep going much further … providing you with so very much evidence of how a scientific type method of observation would soon show plenty of DATA that directly suggests these holy books do indeed VERY OFTEN make people horrible .

      But whats the point really ?, you are a Theist .. and Theism = Faith

      You are anti science no ? . That is unless somebody rapes you , then you will suddenly glady grasp onto science if need be .. Why ? because Theism wont be able to help you put the hidden rapist away where he cant rape other women ..Will it Tina

      To be honest Tina in my “opion” without wanting to sound nasty …simply being honest! …i cant help feeling like your faith has stopped you from understanding more about the human nature and good and evil …. But thats my opinion …And i dont mean it in a mean way … Any more than i would wish to be mean toward Captain Jon Colman … If opinions are honest …Sometimes HONEST opinions hurt people …. when opinions hurt people …sometimes maybe it a matter that these folk feeling hurt , need to do some more in depth thought , and ask themselves why these opinion are having this effect on them .

      You said : ” The government is an evil. Read Murray M, Rothbart for anarchy. I’m not telling you what to believe, I’m saying your opinions can only take you so far.

      Thanks Tina …. Yes i understand you are not telling me what to believe … Thats something im very impressed with about you as a Theist . Dont get me wrong im not suggesting every theist is demanding that people simply believe … Im merely saying i find it impressive to discuss matters with Theists who dont demand , and you and Paul who also comment here sometimes , impress me that you dont seem so intent on controling ..It just not the norm that i have experience .

      And please understand i dont expect you to believe or agree with anything i say either Tina … So that is a mutual thought

      And finally i can agree with you that much within our governments is not good …I dont see them as evil in any supernatural sense…Just not always good …There is far to much wheeling and dealing going on .Secret agenda`s and suchlike .

      But we people are those who vote these governments in .We people are those who have the power to change government just as the people held the power to change slavery and racism too ! …And thankfully so

      As far as i can see so far this Ludwig Von Mises seems to be not suggesting society needs to get rid of government and become anarchist . But maybe he is suggesting something more like that society needs a more liberal type government , maybe a government whereby the power is still more of a political form of government in which governing power is derived from the people, by consensus (consensus democracy), by direct referendum (direct democracy) for instance.

      Anyway Tina thanks for your comments and the very interesting conversation , and keep them coming if you feel like it. Thanks specially for pointing out this chap Lidwis Von Mises , i shall read some more about his ideas and opinions for sure.Im not any anti scholar , i think universities and schooling and learning is a good thing …But to be honest my life experience has taught me that any amount of schooling doesnt always make somebody that smart .Ive known some highly educated people , that i later found out were still actually rather thick . Maybe they were excellent at going to school ,reading many books ,passing all of the exams ….. But still couldnt manage to think very well for themselves.

  8. tinaf07 says:

    The Anti Capitalist Mentality is a book on HOW socialist think, when you are quoting him you must understand the full context of the quotation, he’s presenting the arguements of the socialist mindset. Like The old testament has the books of wisdom: Proverbs and Ecclesiates. I just see science as a tool based on aprior reasoning. Here’s a link to an interesting blog about the scientific method. I plan on reading the book it got it’s reaseach from very soon. http://jasmine71.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/we-dont-need-id-to-disprove-atheism/

    • ExEB says:

      Hi Tina , thanks again for your comments.

      You said …” The Anti Capitalist Mentality is a book on HOW socialist think, when you are quoting him you must understand the full context of the quotation, he’s presenting the arguements of the socialist mindset. Like The old testament has the books of wisdom: Proverbs and Ecclesiates. ”

      Well i`d still say Luwig Von Mises is plainly suggesting he does not believe Anarchism is honestly a possibilty thats ever going to work .

      This quote specially puts matters pretty blunt : ” [Anarchists are] shallow-minded, dull, [and suffer from] illusions and self-deception. The Ultimate Foundation of Economic Science, pp. 98-9. ”

      And to be rather blunt i have to agree .As i have already said before the idea of a system run on pure honest Anarchism , paints me a vivid picture in my mind of a dragon eating its own tail . Because with any pure form of Anarchism this is exactly what would happen , the system would soon enough break down somewhere and start to gobble itself up .

      Im not even interested in debating the idea that maybe he is speaking in terms like whats written in the bible . I will only say why would and economist even bother doing any such thing . To help cause many people very much confusion like the bible does ? . In my opinion what you suggest doesnt even stand up to any decent common sense . Please dont take offence i dont wish to sound mean, im just being honest in my thoughts .If my thoughts dont seem to be common sense to you , then thats fine ! and please do tell me and explain why , because i dont like to not be talking common sense , and im not afraid to be proved wrong.

      The socalist mindset in my opinion is still very far away from any pure form of Anarchism . A socialist mindset has a social system concerned about trying to meet the needs of all people , as such it can be about having coercion everywhere.You dont even get the choice to decide for yourself give to charity , its almost expected.

      But in saying all this thanks a lot for pointing me towards this man Ludwig Von Mises , because from what little ive read already, there is some things i do like about what this man says .

      You said : ” I just see science as a tool based on aprior reasoning. Here’s a link to an interesting blog about the scientific method. I plan on reading the book it got it’s reaseach from very soon.

      No i cant agree that science is a tool based on a priori reasoning . A priori argument is one of which you can see that it is true just lying on your couch.We cant learn about gene technology that provides us with the kind of extremely correct evidence that allows us to convict rapists by study of DNA , by lying on the couch Tina . When you drive your car Tina with scientifically designed tyres and safty aspects , or go into hospital and receive a heart transplant , this science is often not based on priori reasoning , this is information learned through many scientific experiments .

      I looked at that blog link you provided , let me first say William Lane Craig is a sharp cookie when it comes to debating . He is a professional public debater and his style often works well in live situations where time is short and people need to think quick ,and its easily possible to tie people up in knots .But if many of William Lane Craigs argument were really that great , dont you think he would be right out there working with Theist scientists to provide some scientific theorys that could withstand peer review ?.

      Of course he would .Of course Theist scientist would be diving in with great glee if they thought this were honestly possible.

      On that blog it suggests …” The fact that everyone can agree that Susan Boyle is not as attractive as Angelina Jolie cannot be proven scientifically; but, boy oh boy, is it a fact!

      I dont really like this sentence because in my opinion its rather rude and nasty , and well im somebody who dont think looks is what matters the most …. But still with saying that … i do take issue with the bloggers idea that scientific method could not be used to find out whether human view thought Susan Boyle is considered as attractive as Angelina Jolie .. Infact i suggest only by use of the scientific method could all the honest data be provided , that we need to help provide us with true conclusions . Without it we rely on lots of guess work.And we cannot tell if the evidence has been tampered with .Only when scientific method is use that can be duplicated and peer reviewed , can we hope to find most honest data that will be far more likely to add up to the honest truth.

      On that blog it states …” In a debate between a Christian named William Lane Craig and a Darwinist named Peter Atkins, Atkins the Atheist said that God wasn’t necessary because everything could be explained by science alone

      And this is a prime example where one needs to be a professional debater when debating people like Craig .Because had this guy Peter Atkins suggested God wasnt necessary because everything could be explained by Science and logic , reasoning and some good old common sense . This debate could have taken on a whole differnt outcome . While still making the point that God is not necessary . And all 5 points Craig made still would not have really mattered one bit , even though i would still question his theory , because as i pointed out above with asking ourselves the question of whether Susan Boyle is considdered attractive by humans or not , the best option available we have to find some honest data to help us find out .Would be to use a type of scientific method .

      The thing is philosophy is kind of what provides us with the ideas , scientific method tests the ideas and provides us the evidence , we then read the evidence to find the conclusions .

      Theism has the philosophy and the conclusions , but totally disregards the main factor needed to find many truths .

      That being the data provided by scientific evidence that we need to help back up these conclusions.

      And because Theism is about philosophy and the conclusions thats simply lacking in the scientific evidence …. This is why its classed as being about = FAITH

      Your blogger states this …” It’s also false because it is self-defeating. In other words, Atkins was saying, “Science is the only objective source of truth.” For him to say that would lead me to ask, “Is THAT true? Is the statement you just made TRUE?” His statement was caused by logic, not science, so IS THAT STATEMENT TRUE ABOUT SCIENCE BEING THE ONLY OBJECTIVE SOURCE OF TRUTH

      Here this person is wrong .Its not just about logic that tell us science provides us the only objective source of truth in the purely objective sense . Because without science all truth would become subject to human logic and opinions to provide the objective value .Where as science provides us with a far more objective value by providing us data from test results .It doesnt matter what you or i or Joe Blogs down the road might personally prefer to think , when we run a scientific test say for formulating the most long lasting rubber . The scientific test provide us a far more objective source of truth , than human mind ever could …Because the human mind provides us with the philosphy for the ideas and helps read the conclusions

      But without the data of scientific testing , its about guess work. And my view or sombody else view about what rubber might last longer , is subject to our opinions

      Anyway i find this stuff all very interesting . Might i be wrong ? …Sure … Im not afraid of being wrong either ! , so please do feel quite free to point out where i might be wrong … For if i am wrong , like science i sure do hope i will find out about it …. Science has no loss of pride , when later being found out to be wrong and having to change some conclusions .Often its not the fault of science its the fault of the humans not using science properly, mucking up the tests or not reading the conclusions properly . Science should only need to feel shameful when it refuses to admit being wrong and refuses to change its conclusion.

      For at that point science will have become more all about theory and FAITH

  9. Paul Darroch says:

    This is an important and valuable exchange of views.
    It raises a number of important questions.
    Is God culturally defined ? Or is God able to be bigger than our narrow minded religion.
    Is anarchy a viable option.
    Can a person be a Christian Anarchist ? And are we open minded to see things differently or even to be able to read the Bible we think we know.
    My family call themselves “anarchists” and some members of my family are “Christian Anarchists”.
    On the cultural side of things, bored with over 40 years of Christianity and not the least bit convinced that leaders were leading rightly I went off 1998 and did seven years in Islam. And yes fascinating to find the same sorts of claims being made for God as well as cultural manipulations etc. But Muslims as I found them were more broken more liable to be real and honest of failure, and some very precious people whom I will embrace in heaven (not all, some) So yes culture is very very important. But a real experience of God goes beyond that so that we can and do challenge our cultures and change them.Right now I do deeply value ExEB having a wonderful time currently being an atheist just as I once had a wonderful time being a Muslim. We all need a break now and again. Being in the EB is a very hard life!
    But what I would say to conclude is that God is well able to show himself in a way that fits our circumstances. Just as too God can and does speak through the Bible making it amazingly real. I honestly do not know how and when this is going to happen for my brother ExEB. But I do not have the slightest doubt at all that it is going to happen!
    And when it happens there will be some amazing logic in it.
    In 2005 here in New Zealand some local brothers got a million dollars together and began a campaign against the Green Party. So we had the nations TV turn up at the Favona Meeting Hall where across the road, and beside the place are my own children’s old aunt and second or third cousins. And my kids were Green Party supporters… and the REALLY NEAT thing about all of this, is that when another cousin of ours briefed the Green Party leadership the million dollars to get rid of the Green Party actually did the Complete Opposite, and right here in Mangere the election was lost to a George Bush style political party as a’too close to call’ election was finally won! (See the book The Hollow Men by Nicky Hager for the details)
    You see both sides of this divided family right here in Mangere had the nation in our hands, both were doing things, and in the end it was literally God who decided the election (Matthew 10: 26/27) That is MY God!
    When I see the entire nation being controlled by the random anarchist actions of a bunch of out of control Brethrens divided and supporting or opposing the same party then I have seen God and Am a True Believer! Only God controls this nation!
    When serious miracles begin to happen, then believe God! And pray for God is the only one who can heal our many many generations of Brethrens. (sic)

    • ExEB says:

      Hi Paul . happy new year ! .

      Well my friend im quite happy to see any evidence of Gods existence , im certainly not trying to turn a blind eye to it …So bring it on !

      However i doubt i will be likely to see any …Thousands of years have passed now Paul , and yet though science can record the existence of very many other things …Faith has still stayed as nothing more than faith . The same as it always was . Miracles are still mere factors of faith recorded in mythical stories , science has the where with to record miracles if they honestly exist ….Sadly they dont exist , and as such have never ever been able to be recorded .

      Paul you said …” But a real experience of God goes beyond that so that we can and do challenge our cultures and change them

      Paul when you change culture , that is simply more human culture in progress . So in my opinion , this does nothing to help suggest God-/s are involved …If anything it helps prove faith revolves entirely around human culture.

      You talk about ….” But a real experience of God goes beyond that ”

      Paul you have no objective way of knowing what is a real experience of God ….. You will claim having a real experience …. Folks involved in Islam will do exactly the same thing even if their experience in God totally contradicts your “real experience in God ” ….Hindu folk will claim …no ! we had the real experience …. and so on !

      I.M.H.O….. you are all like the blind leading the blind . You all make it up as you go .You have been doing this for thousands of years now while causing so much pain and heartbreak as you go ….. What worst ….Is after being involved in such practices ,,,you all feel somehow you lot should deserve to gain eternal life ?

      Sadly it is your right to freedom of such faith ….. But none the less in my opinion you are all criminals no less than Hitler was .

      You said ….” When I see the entire nation being controlled by the random anarchist actions of a bunch of out of control Brethrens divided and supporting or opposing the same party then I have seen God and Am a True Believer! Only God controls this nation! ”

      Paul this is your evidence of Gods work ?.

      Crikey Paul what you saw there was a bunch of deceitful arseholes that needed tossing in jail .If this was the work of your God , then i suggest quite obviously your God also made an utter great balls-up of whatever he was trying to achieve .God is in control of nothing Paul ….God has never been in control of anything , if God was honestly involved it wouldnt only be the theists who would see it …Atheists like myself would see it too … Science would record it also .

      Paul im sorry to break this to you but your God still remains as much a myth as he always was …Infact God becomes more myth everday as science breaks through and makes many more new discoverys …. Paul …when folks of faith get sick ….God never heals them God never even pokes his head in or gives a damn ….Science is who comes to the rescue ! with modern medicine … Paul if your daughter gets raped and the rapist is hard to track down …God doesnt help you Paul …no he doesnt …Science helps by using the very same DNA that theists still deny connects us to other primates

      I have never tried to deny miracles Paul ….Honesty and the lack of evidence for miracles is what denys the existence of miracles .

      The thing is Paul if the omnipotent God existed that you faithful folk believe in , actually existed … Then we should surely see good evidence of God ….For instance we might have seen Christianity spring up in the middle east and Australia and New Zealand at exactly the same time . Thus showing some honest sign that there was actually some true “supernatural intelligent design” involved .

      But we dont see this at all Paul …We only ever saw that Gods were connected to human culture .In Muslim countries it was Muhammad …In other countries it was Christianity …Elsewhere it was Hindu .

      Thus proving that God is entirely cultural and as such is a mere figment of the culture of the human mind thats thinking about it . Pointing out that absolutely no truely honest “objective” judgement even exists .

      Much about your faith is founded on blatant lies Paul .

      Should we be so surprised at the amount of damage these blatant lies have caused us ?

      Should we really expect much good should come from such utter blatant deceit Paul ? ….Did any good come from the blatant deceit the out of control Exclusive Brethren got involved with in those elections ?

      Faith is bound to die Paul , because the truth stands on it own merit …And sadly the legacy faith will leave behind , will be bad memories of deceit that caused us humans much harm

      Your faith doesnt stand on its own merit Paul ….If it did we wouldnt have all the faith problems that we do have

      But still in saying this ….I still respect your right to be faithful , even though your faith has been a curse.

      However i cannot be honest and say that your faith deserves my respect.

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