The impact

Some ex cult members,still struggle, with relationship loss,specially with regard of their children.In some ways, it seems very similar to parent abduction of likes whats being described here throughout these few article i’ll post below.And what long lasting effect it often has on people

Perhaps the only main difference there is here,though (with ex eb members situation), is that there is also a cult involved in the mix of things too.

Either way, it still amount to a type of kidnapping?

Not only will ex cult parent themselves continue to struggle, but because of the parent constant struggle with loss of contact with their own children ,and all other issues of life of what can then stem from that, other ex cult brothers and sisters of that particular parent whom lost their children, may then also continue to struggle as well in some way too,due to “flow on” effect of any number of factors involved (IE: the ex cult family unit shares the loss)

So there is in fact a number of different scenarios of what can arise? (not any one scenario fits all type equation)

There are well meaning people,and some are believers too,who feel that perhaps ex members of cults should have moved on already by now.I suspect that perhaps those folk just don’t bother to ever read/learn/research all that much science? .

Many maybe, perhaps, don’t bother to read books other than the bible?.In which case then, perhaps their misinformed expectation is founded more on lack of knowledge 

Who knows

People who’d expect that everyone might have been able to have  moved on already, after x amount of period of time after leaving from a cult,perhaps themselves still might struggle a fair bit with the cult style black and white way of thinking? (cult members lives are often lived  stereotype similar). So some ex cult members then still perhaps fail to even imagine how that might in fact happen,( IE:fail to imagine that ex cult lives might in fact pan out quite differently after leaving)

Therefore its perhaps also understandable as well too, why some might figure, that all ex cult members lives might should always remain totally comparable .As they fail to imagine how it mightn’t

Not their own fault of course.As this is how cult life existence teaches molds people to learn to think like (IE: a cult existence, doesn’t allow for cult members to experience how “different” that outsiders lives can pan out to be).

Anyway this first article here, deals mainly with the effect on the children themselves. See here

Then next, from the next article i found, of what i’ll post below, Quote:


“As adults, many victims of bitter custody battles who had been permanently removed from a target parent, whisked away to a new town and given a new identity, still long to be reunited with the lost parent. The loss cannot be undone. Childhood cannot be recaptured. Gone forever is that sense of history, intimacy, lost input of values and morals, self-awareness through knowing one’s beginnings, love, contact with extended family, and much more. Virtually no child possesses the ability to protect him- or herself against such an undignified and total loss” (Clawar & Rivlin, p. 105).

end quote (my bold& red)

Then next article


She believes the boys became convinced that she had abandoned them. One day she took a plane to Germany and waited outside their school. When they saw her, they ran in the opposite direction and got into a car. “The first time I saw Alexander, at the second court hearing, he greeted me by hitting me.” She aims a punch at her own stomach to illustrate.

How did this change her?I lost my job and by now I was weighing 45 kilos. I wasn’t eating and I couldn’t sleep because my hip bones were so painful, sticking out.” She looks into her coffee, then directly at me. “I used to be quite amusing, actually, when I was young. Now I cannot stay still – I have to be busy. That’s a sign I see in a lot of parents. They become workaholics, or depressives. I have two people who committed suicide, and one ended up in the loony bin. You can feel sorry for yourself and go deeper and deeper into yourself. Or you can work and work.”

The most painful loss, she says, was physical. “Touching them. Feeling them. I constantly had nightmares. Still have them. They are always small in dreams, they’re with me in London, and they’re either being taken away or they’re in danger.”

I ask if she is capable of feeling joy these days. “Seeing my children is wonderful. Christopher says my face lights up when I see them.” She pauses. “I used to say I’d like to just drill a hole in my head and take some of this stuff out, this anxiety, this hyperness.” She still feels that? “Oh, yes.”

end quote (my bold and red)

From this next piece of info .Quote:

Pauline Boss, a professor and marital and family therapist at the University of Minnesota, coined the term “ambiguous loss” to describe what happens when people are missing, either physically or emotionally.

end quote . See info on understanding  ambiguous loss here

Anyway, i think this info above,. may go some way to help explain why the misinformed idea that people will move on,is expecting something totally unnatural

Which then brings me to quote from the last link below, of which is written by someone who’d actually experience the situation themselves


I’m scared for a few reasons, but mostly I’m scared of receiving judgment or of bringing judgment upon my child


But our story needs to come out, because there is so much that isn’t said about kidnapping. So much that I didn’t know until after I lived it, and if I can make one more person sympathetic to the experience, or allow another parent to know that they are not alone in living out one of the worst experiences a parent could face, then, hopefully it was worth it.

Now all the stories told in articles above ,deal with situation where one parent is involved in kidnapping the children.

Imagine if the kidnapping  involves manipulative form of coercion of  a group claiming to be Christians. Who are also being rewarded with charity status too

That’s then bound to become even harder to swallow and move on from ?

Specially so too, when citizens in general, don’t act as if they even care

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Rural suicides don’t make the news….

Another comment from the wisdom of a callous minded believer (spoken in connection with continuing praises being  sung, in regard of charity effort of eb rapid relief team, RRT)

Quote :

Rural suicides don’t make the news….

end quote

Well likewise ….Neither do suicides caused by cults either


Few people care (that’s the way it appears to be anyway).So long as their own needs are being met.Even mainstream believers too.”Real” Christians evidently

Totally evil but sadly still would seem so .. Consider, how many “real” Christian do we ever see, or even hear,promptly helping us to ask for real honest based change, and reconciliation?

A man can even purposely hang himself off of a tree, within one of the church grounds too, church grounds owned by the particular cult involved of what had constantly caused him to feel so much sadness and grief, throughout his life,that he’d finally given up and had decided to commit suicide.See info here

Few non eb are ever heard to make any real fuss over that kind of suicide (IE:kind of suicide, of what’s caused through long standing drought-loss of natural human love and kindness)

Are they?

Rex took this action (hanging himself) upon himself, as a last resort, hoping that his action might then help to prompt ,more people, hopefully including real Christians perhaps too , to step up to the mark, to help see that all this ongoing  sadness and grief might stop 

I have first hand info (i heard about it straight from the horse’s mouth so to speak), from the mouths of his (Rex Curtis) brother and sister in law too, of which i had gained directly from them both when i was personally in their house,and in fact even staying there too myself at their home at that time in Auckland, while i were busily talking with them both, back within the time of the brethren review. (i don’t mind doing a polygraph lie detector test either,if need be,to help prove how i’m not lying about what i were told)

When i was told how Rex had committed suicide. I then right away inquired as to why Rex had ended up committing suicide

I was told that Rex had phoned up one morning, in a very distressed state, wanting to quickly speak with his brother (IE: the guy who’s house  i was at, and was talking too), but his brother wasn’t home right at the moment when Rex had phoned.So Rex’s sister in law,had received the phone message off of Rex,the message was to ask her husband (IE: Rex’s brother) to please try to ring back a.s.a.p

However Rex’s brother, when told about the distressed-state of the phone call from Rex, had decided to just wait awhile, and leave it until later on that night (IE fairly traditional brethren way of letting ex members sit and suffer for a little longer .So as to then also help render them even more needy and thus even more pliable for manipulation too)

But sadly, by then, it was already far too late . As Rex had already gone ahead and hung himself

So much for RRT ?

Its only rapid ,when trying to glean more PR browny points (brown nosing)


Its good that farmers are getting relief .Yes sure.No two ways about it. But even so, don’t expect us ex eb , (who care about our friends who died, and along with the continuing plight of lives of their non-eb parentchildren whom still live as well too)to allow the history of these suicides what were caused by the hash nature of the brethren cult.

To fade away and be forgotten. Simply because the general public may quite happily be payed-out with hay relief ?

No way

Not while there’s this lingering injustice of what still remain unattended to

Although i’m an atheist,anyway i still doubt Jesus would even wish for me to bother to go align myself, along side, many attendants of this, “real” Christian, cesspit of living dead (Matthew 7:15-20) .

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Judgement Day

Quote comment

Don’t worry, who do they have to answer to on judgment day. Give them enough rope, they will hang themselves.

end quote

Maybe few stop and consider, that back when Jesus walked the earth, and even long before then too,doomsday people were already claiming that the day of judgement was imminent.And in the time of Jesus, they said, a number of people whom were still alive, at that time right then, wouldn’t die themselves, before judgement day would arrive

I feel i can agree with one aspect of the comment above,that given enough rope people will hang themselves

The judgement day that is finally come upon all humanity,right now, is bad-judgement day, in the sense that human have continually relied on a-God of what most likely don’t even exist (IE: we can say it seems most likely, because of our observation, that there is no evidence available to suggest perhaps one-God does exist)

Millions billions of human have banked on the idea of God . Even on the idea that God can save the world.Those humans have felt so secure and safe that they just went ahead and misused earths resources as they saw fit to do.It never worried them to do so.Why?. Because at the back of their mind, they remained convinced,God is ever ready to quickly rush in and help humanity out

Now global warming is beginning to take a toll. And RRT rushes in.The population swoons over this.

I’m not sure if the faithful folk are also expecting that this act will help stop global warming and future drought ?.For the moment, most people are carried off and away within the joyful moments of the “here and now” .I never see anyone saying (thinking?) , but “hold on” now,lets not get too overcome by emotion,while the RRT might help us right now, but what about if we might soon perhaps begin to start seeing even way longer periods of drought too.What then ?

I feel, perhaps its a fairly correct metaphor to use,to say, that given enough rope humans will more than happily go ahead hang themselves

There are people ,who don’t even like to hear people like me, openly saying the kind of things we do say.Perhaps they figure, that the kind of things i say, could be too depressing for people to need to hear being said.My message, is not a message like what believers have. I don’t have a message, that say “ohh well lets not worry,no need to, everything will still be alright in the long run,as the sky father is still always there and ready to step in to help take care of business ,for us”

Any idea, that contradict this faith belief based on hope and evidence ,sounds too distasteful. Perhaps because, more and more, more people these days might secretly now begin to suspect, if perhaps it might be correct

I don’t even like my own message either.I really don’t.

My thoughts, are not the kind of thoughts, of what have ability to help make me feel, ohh well,never mind, don’t bother to worry too much, as everything will still just work out fine, in the long haul

I have a feeling, that perhaps some within our Governments,by now, may even themselves also suspect that maybe there is no God.But, how do they go about breaking the news, to the population, without causing too much problem?

Sure there still might be a-God.I hope so.I hope so mainly because i can also now see how we humans have gotten ourselves right deep up shit creek, already right now,and now we will begin to need to try and quickly fumble around in the dark, to look for decent paddles.To help us paddle back down

But perhaps its a little too much like, we’ve already been busily stringing up the hangman’s rope. Once such large parts of human population, have already chosen, to allow themselves, to all totally rely on God. Without any need for proper evidence?

Give them enough rope, they will hang themselves

Why are governments, spending so much money,now, trying to find planets ,way way far out in space, of what perhaps might be able to become habitable some day by humans?

If in fact,leaders of our governments,are believers ?

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A good End cannot sanctify evil means


“A good end cannot sanctify evil means; nor must we ever do evil that good may come of it.”

William Penn


end quote

I see some theist busily still trying to make a good end sanctify evil means.This is too often been a Christian tradition.

Perhaps we could say, that the Catholic church, had merely tried to help cover up sex abuse, so to try and protect the Catholic church which would then in turn be for the glory of God (IE: doing so would help to maintain Church membership and Christian worship)

We could take this silly idea even further afield.Like we might say, it’s not so bad that the poor persons children had hijacked somebody’s car,as it had then meant that the poor people’s extended family, had then been able to have a car themselves to use over the week end for purpose of joy-riding .Which in turn, had then helped to bring so much more joy and happiness to the poor family involved, for one week end


Perhaps we might say.Its not so bad that some people are able to escape justice, as those people might also have children that need looking after at home, which the parent wont be able to do should they get caught and go to jail. And anyway, God is always still able to punish people for bad things they do,later on, on judgement day

Anyone see where this idea is headed?

Below is the theists comment which is in connection to this



Farmers are not getting enough help….who believes mainstream media 😏…!

There have been way too many farmer suicides….they are so isolated in many cases….

I am aware of farmers and station families who do it tough continually.
Supermarket chains undercutting them, elitist governmental oppression.etc….etc……
Hooray to consideration and support now……grateful regardless of motive in light of the desperate need ….. & hope South African farmers can also receive ♡♡

The brethren slaughtered many of our hearts and souls…….I’ve chosen to forgive & love – I’m free to move on…..not any of us will escape God’s judgement on that great or terrible Day.

It is the brethren system that is evil….there are good people still in fellowship including members of our own families…..maybe good people in the rrt, which of course is such a typical front for darkness within…..tho, who ever remembers such overt community outreach from the eb-peebs in recent decades….?

If you were destitute and a pervert paedophile or similar sinner offered desperately needed assistance……hmmmm, your response is your own personal choice …… wouldn’t it..?

end quote

It is not the brethren system that’s most evil. It’s the evil of what allows this system.And stands by indifferently. That’s the root of this evil

I feel perhaps i’d have reason to feel ashamed of myself, if i were someone more than willing to gamble on justice in eternity?.

Because, if an eternity doesn’t exist, these well meaning Christian/people whom feel more than happy to gamble in this way, will then not ever even be held to account ,for this terrible unjust misdeed of their own, themselves either. Therefore all of the harm they’ve all helped to sanctify ,here on this earth, will then go unpunished .And  justice will be lost

That surely then would need to be the most highest evil of all time?

You cannot ever make a silk purse out of a sows ear.Why even bother to try?.

People have been warned about global warming.Yet few cared to take action to help prevent it. Someone somewhere need to step up and help lead the way.Its not good enough,either, for us to be saying something like,ohhhh well see how i’m only one person here,so therefore i just cannot help change the whole world

If we were all to end up thinking like that?.Then perhaps we might also,be free to sanctify ourselves, and feel the same kind of way about our children’s upbringing, crime,racism,sexism,marital rape and so much more?

What if the drought suffering is in fact a-part of hell of we have mindlessly helped create for all of ourselves, here on earth? (through our own stupidity and greed and so on)

What if heaven and eternity might in fact refer, to what our lives might have otherwise been able to still be more like now,here on this earth full of such beauty,of what humans have chosen to help destroy, if only we’d all cared to all learn to accept more responsibility ourselves ,way way long before now?

The person making the comment above seem to sanctify the saving of farmers lives what happen through suicide.But forgets that the Brethren group were causing suicide



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Frightening how many things, i feel i can really relate to, as i read through this information from University of Illinois, while i’m considering many experiences i’m mind fully aware of happening, within our family .

I recommend it to all other ex members of Cults to read through too.

I’ve been searching online, to try and find good information, so i might then be able to begin to gain better understanding, in regard to why i might have experienced so many things in life, of what occurred like they have.This piece of info, i feel, helped explain why/how

Quote :

Many people hope that once they leave home, they will leave their family and childhood problems behind. However, many find that they experience similar problems, as well as similar feelings and relationship patterns, long after they have left the family environment. Ideally, children grow up in family environments which help them feel worthwhile and valuable. They learn that their feelings and needs are important and can be expressed. Children growing up in such supportive environments are likely to form healthy, open relationships in adulthood. However, families may fail to provide for many of their children’s emotional and physical needs. In addition, the families’ communication patterns may severely limit the child’s expressions of feelings and needs. Children growing up in such families are likely to develop low self esteem and feel that their needs are not important or perhaps should not be taken seriously by others. As a result, they may form unsatisfying relationships as adults.

Types Of Dysfunctional Families

  • One or both parents use the threat or application of physical violence as the primary means of control. Children may have to witness violence, may be forced to participate in punishing siblings, or may live in fear of explosive outbursts.
  • One or both parents exert a strong authoritarian control over the children. Often these families rigidly adhere to a particular belief (religious, political, financial, personal). Compliance with role expectations and with rules is expected without any flexibility.

There is a great deal of variability in how often dysfunctional interactions and behaviors occur in families, and in the kinds and the severity of their dysfunction. However,when patterns like the above are the norm rather than the exception, they systematically foster abuse and/or neglect. Children may:

end quotes (my bold)

I wont post it all.Its not my right to do so.Take a look yourselves.You wont regret it.You can even purchase the info yourselves for fairly cheap too, if you want to. There’s way more startling info in there, that i feel sure many ex cult members may feel like they can really relate to (i felt like as if the person was almost purposely writing stuff down of what was directed to me in person,to explain about so many aspects of my own life experiences)

Take a look.It soon become quite obvious, that the exclusive brethren group,is been involved in helping foster both abuse and neglect

And to top it all off,our government then rewards them,with right to claim charity status ?

How sick is that

The brethren are only but one group too, who have been actively involved in these aspect of abuse and neglect.Even within NZ, there are a number of other fundamentalist groups also involved in these same tactic of abuse and neglect of what help to promote family dysfunction as well.

This is due to religion being mollycoddled,treated as if its something “particularly” special,and therefore been freely allowed to do this.This is what really stinks

Our governments should all be ashamed of themselves

They allow this to happen. And then they put us back through the “wringer” again too,like whenever we cannot sleep or deal with our lives so well,or perhaps we find it real hard to even keep up with working for our incomes (due to PTSD and so on)

Shame of those people.They are the people who stand by silently with indifference.Much like what Pope Francis does too,and all the other so called main stream “caring” religious folk, also do as well .

Anyone involve in physical violence against children,usually gets penalized fairly quickly,and often in more ways than one.

Yet cults can still get off Scot free and can meter out as much psychological harm and torment as they decide to (and even if heartbroken hearts bleed out dry,there’s still no blood on the outside of what can ever be visibly observed by human eye.Therefore bystanders mirror neuron are unlikely to react either)

And our government will then help reward them,through charity status ?


And meanwhile Australian farmers lap up the hay relief through RRT, too,while congratulating RRT for acting “so caring”.And if the farmers happen to be aware that the sudden exclusive brethren outbreak act of charity, of what has only just begun happening over the last few years,is in fact more of a cunning PR plan to help conjure up public support, for eb cult.

The farmers still don’t mind one bit,so long as their own farming need is being catered for

And its already 2018


I think that the farmer aid is wonderful.

However whats questionable about it , is the reason behind why (PR campaign) the eb are now suddenly involved in offering aid to people they’d usually consider as worldly people.When truth is ,that they didn’t even bother to care ,themselves,to offer any aid to their own ex eb family .Such as these  . Plus the fact that they would also try to pay people to keep quiet about sex abuses, rather than address it decently

They are busily trying to bury these dirty deeds. By conjuring up good will. Hoping that non brethren will also then be just as happy to turn a blind eye also too, and as such therefore be helping dismiss these dirty deed, on behalf of brethren RRT (So the relief doesn’t come totally free,no way,because the brethren expect , as part payment for RRT,for brethren to be able to have their guilt wipe clean)

Or otherwise, perhaps they would have already been busily addressing the harm they caused to loads of ex members?.A number of whom lost contact with their wives and children and grandchildren too,through shunning and excommunication



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A theists reaction to atheism


so they believe in that they don’t believe …makes sense

end quote

The theist comment reaction stemmed from them reading/seeing this  article here



Would other way might happen?

Perhaps theist feel,there should really more likely be, some strange weird feeling,of what would suddenly be expected to shoot out through the end of humans big toe? (like “supernaturally” or something?)

Like, an so, the human brain is usually used for ?

A number of theist still fail to figure out,that human faith beliefs, are in fact the end result of human brain being programmed to believe in God.That’s why faith groups prefer, to retain the right, to start programming their children, to believe in a-God,while the children are still very young. Because while young human brains are also far easier to shape

It also explain why some children will become Christian, while others may instead become Islamist, or Hindu and so on

Its got so much to do with programming of the brain (and so number of slightly different program-editions are also being selected, to be used, so as to help program a particular flavor, of faith belief)

And because a brain remain malleable, then it follow, that re-programming also isn’t impossible

Quote :

You’ve probably heard kid’s brains compared to sponges, but perhaps a more apt comparison would be Play-Doh — because while these organs are incredibly malleable at first, they get less pliable and harder to shape over time, as Dr. Jana explains. (Kind of like Play-Doh after you leave it out too long.)

“External experiences help to shape the architecture of the developing brain,” she says. And while it’s never too late to teach the brain new tricks, you can make a dramatically bigger difference in the early years of your child’s life.

“In the first five years, for the least amount of effort you get the biggest return,” she says.

That’s why all that “serve and return” is so crucial, whether you’re playing peekaboo or reading books or singing songs.

“All the stuff that’s cute and warm and fuzzy and nice to do with young children has more meaning and impact than people realize,” says Dr. Jana, and studies have shown that a “caring, responsive adult” is the “single most important factor” in a child’s development.

Getting back to the slowly-stiffening Play-Doh metaphor, you might be wondering if, after the age of 5, your kid’s brain is too tough to shape. Dr. Jana puts it this way:

“I always tell my patients, the last time I checked it’s possible to rewire a 100-year-old house, it’s just going to cost a lot more, take a lot longer, and not be as good as if you’d done it right in the first place.”


end quote (my bold)

So this science can also help to explain many things about humans. For instance.

This science can even help to explain why exclusive brethren wouldn’t feel like there is anything wrong , with looking down their noses at non exclusive brethren, and are freely able to see non brethren, like as if non brethren are lesser valued type of human being,than what the-brethren people should be considered as being

This also help explain why,a brethren member, wont think twice ,about their act of running away from the scene of a accident,of what they themselves were actively involved in.And may even be prepared to try and hide evidence

This help to explain why, few brethren would even seem to have a healthy sense of conscience either, in regard to the way that their own brethren group, has been actively involved, in trying to cover up sex abuse and silence potential witness, by paying people to keep silent, through use of confidentiality contract

And so on

Brethren minds, had been programmed to learn how to act in this manner

This science can even help to explain why generally our society will see little wrong with the way that the Brethren RRT works too

Because the brains of human within society, generally, have been programmed to believe that its is all quite ok , to observe/experience how church groups may not choose to help ex members of their cult ,while also purposely deciding to actively help the general public instead (so to therefore help the cult conjure up continued support)

The public is simply learned how (IE:been programmed over generations)to become fairly well accustomed to this kind of practice. To help highlight this fact,let me pose this question, how many Catholic, did you observe, who had been so speedy quick to promptly care to help provide relief to ex Catholics who had experienced sexual abuse?

Society is long been programmed to accept that Church groups will retain total freedom to pick and choose in regard to whom they will decide to help, or punish

Hmmmmm ?

Humans have long been programmed to fully accept this practice throughout generations

That even Pope Francis wont be heard condemning this practice either

Beliefs can still change. Because the human brain remain malleable.Kind of like play-doh Although it is always more malleable while human brains are still young.

Less malleable once the human brain gets older.


Which bring us to another understanding . One whats totally worthwhile thinking about too

Why do so many adult ex brethren still find it so hard to handle even hearing/seeing beliefs, of people who have alternative views ?

So whats with that then ?

Because the older the brain become. Then the harder it also is, to change  

Could be correct

Interesting ?

Perhaps some people might be best to spend far less time in church. And a little more time reading through science books? (do it for Christs sake.IE: so you do the figure of Jesus Christ, the honor, of then not needing to depict Jesus as a clueless ignorant bigot type faith figure.Like what well meaning theist, too often, still un-mindfully will tend to depict him as being like).

Just saying

As perhaps it might then help do far more, for exercising our ability to learn how to begin to have far more empathy and compassion for other people too? (even people we don’t like.Because we can begin to at least understand them, better, and even if we may still dislike the way that their brains been programmed.We learn that babies are in fact not born as brethren extremist,or Islamist extremist intent on killing,or even as murders or as rapist or as thief’s, and so on)

Just saying

Like… hope its ok ,for me,to be just saying it ? ..hmmm. Hopefully i wont need to be another ex eb who’ll promptly be banned ? .. hmmmm

People are so easily able to leave escape brethrenism

But then

How easy does the brethrenism-within ,then manage to finally begin to escape from within-them ?


Perhaps that’s a fairly interestingly important question worthwhile pondering ?


Interesting quote

“Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man.”Aristotle, The Philosophy of Aristotle



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Kelleigh Nelson – False Friends on the Right

Out of interest,check the video out above , and perhaps read more through the two links also posted below.

Quote :


By Kelleigh Nelson
July 29, 2014




The eminent leaders of the American New Right, Paul Weyrich (left) and Morton Blackwell (center) together with the president of the USA TFP, John Spann.

CESNUR is especially virulent, (Link) particularly against the testimony of former members of “cults,” where, in certain cases Cesnur even deliberately lied in order to discredit them. Co-founded by Massimo Introvigne (Managing Director), J. Gordon Melton, and Eileen Barker, among others, CESNUR is seen by many as an organization of cult apologists. At the very least, it has ananti-anticult stance, meaning it opposes the doctrines, methods and goals ofanti-cult and counter-cult organizations.

Massimo Introvigne is still today the head of CESNUR and practices as a lawyer with Jacobacci & Perani. Introvigne established CESNUR, launching an unceasing campaign, and quickly becoming, together with J. Gordon Melton and Eileen Barker, one of the most important cult apologists in the world. TFP, in the meantime, continues to uphold the same views as CESNUR, views which share several features with the visionary propaganda of groups like the Church of Scientology, “that there is a worldwide ‘anti-cult conspiracy’ manipulated by psychiatrists and Communists.” Unluckily for them, TFP was recently named in a list of destructive cults drawn up by the French Parliament.

end quote

So,seems to me, its more or less claiming,that Cesnur is particularly against testimony of former members of cults,so much so, they may even lie so as to discredit them ?

Hmmmmm , so can we really rely on academic ?. Just simply because they are academic. Who knows for sure.Pays to question and try and be aware

Note for further interest


Kelleigh is well acquainted with Chicago politics and was working in downtown Chicago during the 1968 Democratic convention riots. Kelleigh is presently the secretary for Rocky Top Freedom Campaign, a strong freedom advocate group.

end quote

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Massimo Introvigne: The Church of Almighty God Christians

An interesting video.The video seem to be arguing the view, that displaced members of The Church of Almighty God Christians  deserve refugee status. Perhaps they do?. I don’t like to think of anyone being harmed real badly (even prisoners,because lots of people don’t have a lot of choice, in regard of birthright.Many people would live their life way differently,if only they were not born into poverty, or social disharmony,or family dysfunction, and so on) .Some say believers, specially Christians, are treated bad in China.I have a feeling they might be.But then, we also need to carefully try and understand how and why it might have ended up being that way (if its correct)

At the beginning of this video, it talks about China’s denial of religious freedom.

Well in thinking about that subject, i cannot help but wonder, hold on, what about the westerns worlds denial of right of our own religious freedom too?. Because the religious freedom within our countries,for now, still relies on certain aspect of human luck .

For instance, luck of birthright.Few members of the Brethren cult, had chosen to become members of brethren, as they were mostly all just born into the group. As such, there was very little choice involved.You had to tow the line, or else accept the risk that you would/might end up shunned and excommunicated and ostracized.So much so,that often they treat you as if you had died already,even go so far as also  removing any photo’s of you,from within family photo albums.

The brethren group is not the only group like this either.Although,some levels of this kind of mistreatment, might be less.Very likely often is

So freedom of religion,within our own countries,sometimes will actually amount to little more than a negative form of religious freedom really.IE: freedom by luck 

Even if we may like to kid ourselves its not?

Now, first off, i don’t see anywhere, within this video, where Massimo Introvigne  even mention that aspect. Its as if, perhaps, this is thought not at all important to mention, or worthy of any level of consideration?.I cannot be sure. I can only go by, what i feel i observe here?. And,in my mind, for discussion to be fair, then perhaps they should take all things into account?

Massimo discusses sinicization ,seem (to me) like, so it’ll hopefully also sound scary too.And perhaps the Chinese might even go way too far?.I don’t know about that for sure. I’m not interested in being the judge of that.But i am a little interested in the way people seem to feel the need to make the idea of regulations to do with aspect of religion, seem extra scary.As if it always need to be

Because consider this, what about canonization of the bible then?.It happened right. And human input was involved there.Interested parties got together, and entered into discussion, until finally there was some level of agreement among them.

And yet, the sky still didn’t suddenly fall down on anyone’s head,as yet?.Has it. So hey,all im saying/asking, is perhaps its better to not bother to scare-monger about sinicization, or regulation, or things like that?.

As perhaps people who are not yet mind fully aware,quite enough,might be too easily swayed through feeling frightened?. And at the end of the day, right now, even here in our own countries, there is still a slippery slope, of what already exist now already anyway.The slippery slope existing between the luck of groups involved in faith abuses, and benign religion

And nothing to help provide checks and balances ,for our own safety sake and protection, between the two. You need to be lucky,too often still

Talking about problems with China, in regard of Christianity and so on,perhaps we would also be best, to be fair, is remember Christianity in China is somewhat tainted by opium experience?.Just saying.Saying to help remind us all. Because so many things within our lives, are all interconnected in some way,and sometimes in some very subtle ways too?.So perhaps people should also always be made aware of these subtle nuisances as well? (i happen to know,myself, how i was never ever even told made aware,about these things, within the Brethren Christian cult.Nobody cared,at all, about that side of justice.All they cared about, was to promote Chinese,as being the totally bad guys 

Few people, would bother to argue, that the Chinese way of dealing with faith group, is anywhere near perfect.No way near.However, perhaps the west also could do well,themselves,to be fair to admit, that even within our own countries too, perhaps our own way of dealing with faith group disturbances, is also still imperfect too?.Specially if we want to pretend to honestly hold Christian values (John 8: 7) .

Kei te pai the arohanui  (John 8:7)

Massimo, seem, to me, to only mention one matter of concern, in any real detail (in regards of  Chinese concerns, to do with The church of Almighty God Christians).Lets consider this, perhaps Massimo might even conclude, that certain claim made by ex members of the exclusive brethren, about the exclusive brethren cult might also be mostly all wrong?.Who knows.It wouldn’t be a great surprise.Lots of citizen do.But lets face it, even the police have found it hard,sometimes, to differentiate between what claims are wrong, or what claims might be correct.

For instance, consider this case study here, the sex abuse claim that were first of all denied  ,then years later on were then agreed to actually be correct

My point is.Being too hasty in concluding that there are definitely nothing wrong, with new religious groups ,or any religious group for that matter. Is exactly that.Perhaps, it could even be, a little too hasty?. Even with regards of historic Catholic sex abuse.

So perhaps this is then valid reason why we/authority might really have need to try and be more prompt in investigating deeper?. After all, our world is now become littered with cases of faith abuse and historic sex abuses, and so on.Littered with all kind of heinous crimes that involved secretive faith groups.

American news reports alone, is been constantly reporting cases where by humans have suffered immensely? (freedom of religion?…pfffftttt )

I note, Massimo seems to make a special point, at the beginning of the video, in regard to material that is academic.I cannot help but wonder (i make no claim to know for sure,as i cannot know this), if Massimo perhaps feel that only academic material is ever of any real value?.

However i do question that idea (some people have) of what seem to suggest, that perhaps only academic material is ever classed as being valuable.Because what about some situation where perhaps there is still little interest from within academic interests .

Consider the voices of, down to earth relatively uneducated people,(people like me) people who’d perhaps suffer in some way, from atrocity, maybe from racialism, or sexism or faith abuses and so on?.

And consider that at one time, some years/generation ago now,within academia,perhaps at that fairly unmindful moment in time it was still thought that perhaps there could never ever be, any such thing as marital rape?.

We can fully rely on those academics then right?

If a women was raped by her husband, back at that time some time ago now,perhaps the (including some un-educated) women’s voices, were the only real decent information available around, on offer?.

Just saying

So what use was it back then, or even right now either, for us to always only ever care to totally rely only on academic source ?

That could end up dangerous (dangerous specially for people who’d continue to suffer)

So i’m somewhat wary of  people might perhaps like to minimalise non-academic voices? (im not interested in judging here as to whether this is how Massimo may feel himself,or not).

They might have biased reason to want to minilmalise non-academic opinion?

Who knows

Because then perhaps any person who is not mind fully aware enough, might then see that as being some sort of meaningful direction, to lead them to then decide conclude themselves, to totally disregard any other voices,around, of what are not seen to be coming from within academia?. (IE:and perhaps many slaves voices would have been disregarded and drowned out, due to this way of thinking?.We should all hope it isn’t still continuing in this same manner today?)


In Massimo  earlier review of quote:

Rebecca Stott, In the Days of Rain. A Daughter. A Father. A Cult. London:

Massimo has said quote :

Anti-cult literature is normally repetitious, and rarely of interest for scholars.
“Atrocity stories” by “apostates,” the technical term used by sociologists to
designate angry ex-members who have left groups they regard as “cults,” in
particular, tend to repeat the same clichés

end quote (my bold)

Well hey, dont forget that even the slaves voices were also likely to be sounding  ,quote : normally repetitious, and rarely of interest for scholars.

Also as well, too right ? (way back in those old days). Remaining that way, for a period of time

Just because ex cult members voices. Might seem like,quote:

repetitions , and rarely be of interest for scholar, as yet

But how does it follow,from that acknowledgement then, that these voices, should then also need to be treated as being totally unworthy of recognition ?

That seem wrong (i feel). Even morally wrong too perhaps? (you be the judge)

That is my question. All my thoughts here, are based on all my own opinion.I post them all here, on my blog now,along with other material ive quoted, for reason of hoping to help to open up further discussion.Doing so, under law of fair use , for research, review and criticism .

Specially at this time,right now,present moment in time when our ability for freedom of speech, is also coming under question.We need to have freedom of speech?. Even angry/hurt people should have some ability to free speech too.Some might have valid reason to be hurt and angry.

We need to just become more mind fully aware, all of us,that not all free speech is equal. Our minds are the tool we all should practice to learn how, to use properly, so as to help us differentiate


That way we might even also learn how, to not be so gullible as to fall into traps of extreme faith abuse (IE:all situation where by people are not born into faith abuse as such, but are in stead being coerced into joining up)

Perhaps even the exclusive brethren cult situation might have been avoided,as well too,if only, more and more people were to try and also become more mind fully aware,each and everyone of us,in every regard, and therefore also all become far more able of discerning right from wrong?


Here below, is a differently sourced news article, on Church of Almighty God

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Why America’s ‘nones’ don’t identify with a religion

Quote :

A growing share of Americans are religiously unaffiliated. We recently asked a representative sample of more than 1,300 of these “nones” why they choose not to identify with a religion. Out of several options included in the survey, the most common reason they give is that they question a lot of religious teachings.

Six-in-ten religiously unaffiliated Americans – adults who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” – say the questioning of religious teachings is a very important reason for their lack of affiliation. The second-most-common reason is opposition to the positions taken by churches on social and political issues, cited by 49% of respondents (the survey asked about each of the six options separately). Smaller, but still substantial, shares say they dislike religious organizations (41%), don’t believe in God (37%), consider religion irrelevant to them (36%) or dislike religious leaders (34%).


end quote (my bold)

You watch.Many more Americans will end up totally disliking religious organizations also, as well too soon enough.Specially now that the US, has gone ahead and launched their so called “religious liberty task force.Haaa hee hee,force is a perfect word to describe the tyranny, it’ll be likely to involve.And what a real great way cunning plan, to help make even more people,also soon begin to feel totally sick of the sight of force-fully organized religion?

Info about the cobbled together ,”battle ready” task force here

Do you think so?

Great tradition of religious freedom ,being challenged  … Haa haaa . Traditional freedom? . they must be joking

Some wickedly weird kind of traditional “freedom”,it is, whenever children may begin to be used,as if like pawns, driving a wedge of deep sadness, between parents? (so very hard to heal the amount of damage done too)


21% say they dislike the positions churches take on social and political issues

end quote(my bold)

Not surprising really.Is it?. When considering how the idea of American religious liberty, is always been one big giant fib anyway, a fib that serve to sound good to the Christian ear.Little more than that really.Serve to allow the Christian to feel ok about the way it is, so long as they also just don’t ever bother to ever stop to think too deeply about even questioning anything about it,too much (IE:act like sheeple people) .

Religious liberty, only exist as a negative form of religious liberty at best.Right?

A willy nilly , very few checks and balances form of liberty, of what actually will also require a whole lot of luck.Often mostly depending on luck of the citizens birthright.Right?. Because, if you so happen to be born unto believers whom happen to fellowship in a cult? …. WOFF maybe ?.Too bad,how sad for you then?.Poor you, some real bad luck for you?.Perhaps you’ll be another one of those very unlucky children,who’ll perhaps need to experience blasting ?.Or one of the children,who’s unlucky to be born unto faithful parents, who may decide to refuse their children the right to have blood transfusion,or chemotherapy,and so on ?


Will it be all classed under religious liberty?

Who’s liberty is that then?. The parents liberty ?.Not any of the children’s liberty right?.They just don’t matter,or just don’t even count as yet, or something?. Even although, its interconnected with the future generation, of America too ?

What about Americans mental health ?. Social harmony, or social dysfunction perhaps?

Do children ever choose to be blasted?.Is that their own religious liberty “experience“,or how many children choose to die, from lack of medical help?.Or choose to be scared right out of their whits,and perhaps suffer nightmares, by hearing constant suggestion of hell, even while they are still extremely young?

So much for this liberty then ?

Pfffffffttttttt !!! …seems no more than a bullshit form of liberty (to me)

I’ll hazard to guess ,that feeling of dislike, that exist for now, as merely dislike for the present moment, and is soon about to begin to get way worse ?.Total dislike,near bordering on feelings of hatred,could maybe soon enough be far better words, to choose, to use to describe some children’s/peoples feelings, in future time ahead?.

I think so

There will be many more American people, who soon enough, also wont want to even be known as being someone who’ll want to admit, to being a member of organized Christian fellowship?.

Specially once this so called religious liberty task force, finally gets moving


You watch,and mark my word, Donald J Trump might just as well, be actively involved, in trying hard-out, to try and help create as many more atheists, as possible

They have already been busily hanging themselves (metaphorically speaking).By the mindless act of allowing religious tyranny to reign.Allowing atheist to be ostracized so as to then also begin feel, as if they are people considered inhuman.

And besides

Where was God anyway,while all this religious tyranny and suffering was constantly occurring? (IE:senseless to blame people for beginning to question their faith)

Now seems they are looking,how to fully seal the fate asap  (IE: turn even more people against religion)





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Ten years ago… today

Real lovely nice guy,this fellow named John Huddle, who is an ex member of the Word of Faith Fellowship cult, of whats been run by Jane Whaley ,retells some of his own memories, here on this you tube video above, from point of view of his own recollection.

Awesome how John now is also become actively involved in helping others as well too….Wonderful thing that is right?

John now actively helps spread the arohanui.Kia kaha John

You can see more of his blog here too

What interest me, is to see some of the same things explained by John on his you tube video and blog, of what some ex eb have also explained as well too. For instance, listen through John Huddles you tube video above first (read along with the written words also too, at the same time, if you like to, through the blog link ive provided).Then after that, go ahead and also listen through the video i’ll post below.

Then take note of how there are some fairly common experiences that are shared 

My question is

How can this be deemed as religious liberty?

To drive a wedge of disharmony between wife children and husband … Is a most powerfully evil tool,for any domineering groups involved in faith abuses,to be freely allowed right to use?

Something’s morally wrong about this

The children are often used like pawns, in a form, of wicked faith war game.And in fact is also a well proven recipe for further promotion of family dysfunction

Surely the USA,already has more than enough family dysfunction to deal with?.That dysfunction, is  mighty costly, right?

Costly to people involved. Costly in regard of health insurance premium costs rise … Costs$….Costs $..ongoing immense ever expanding economical Costs $…. through human life’s many interconnections ,Even expanding costs involved within Countries social disharmony..Huge expanding costs involved …$$.. in regards of mental health disabilities caused

Modern humanity would have need to become more mindfully aware ? (less sheeple)

Perhaps Donald J Trump need to begin to help clean up his own nest first

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